Leading through Grief: A Guide to Being Human

Speaker 1 (00:00.238)
Welcome to Confessions of a Terrible Leader, where real leaders share the raw truth about the lessons they learned the hard way so you don't have to. Join our host, Lacey Nelson, founder of Transcend Leadership Collective and former Terrible Leader. On this podcast, we invite you to step into the confessional and get real with the messy stories and behind the scenes reality of leadership. Let's get to it.

Hello friends and welcome back to Confessions of a Terrible Leader. I'm your friendly neighborhood podcast producer, Mary Scoppe here today with founder of Transcend Leadership Collective, Lacey Nelson, and host of Confessions of a Terrible Leader. Lacey, welcome back to the show.

Thank you. I love doing these episodes even given the heavy topic which Mary what is today's topic? Yeah

Yes, heavy topic indeed. Today we're going to chat a little bit about leading through grief. This is a hard one, but a very, very necessary one and something that we're all going to have to deal with at some point. Maybe you're dealing with it in a very present way right in this moment. Yeah. But Lacey, we're just going to dive into some of your own experiences in this and what would be the best thing that you can advise leading through grief.

Yeah, yeah. Well, to set context and in full transparency, I lost my dad and my father-in-law within two years. And this was recent. We just hit the one-year anniversary of my dad's death at the end of summer. And then my father-in-law was before that. So it has been a lot at this household. And my father-in-law was as much of a father figure to me as my own father. So very much heavy.

Speaker 2 (01:46.498)
heavy, heavy and wanted to just share what I've learned in the last couple of years while they're still fresh and acknowledge I'm sharing personal experience, what I've learned and I still have more to learn, right? I'm not proclaiming expertise on this, but I would love to share insight and things that helped and things that didn't help during this process. And also just knowing if you're not experiencing this, you're going to have people on your team that are experiencing it at some point.

And I also want to speak to what the heck grief is. First of all, I think we automatically recognize it as connected to death, is grief amplified. Losing someone that we love and knowing we're not going to see them on this side of the veil, so to speak, again, is a very painful experience. Grief hits hard. And people can also have other experiences that create grief. Like divorce is full of grief.

loss of a relationship, loss of your expectations for what you thought your life was going to be like or dying. Your identity's changing. There can be grief in that. There can be grief in your kids launching out into the world. Yeah. Right? Yes. Yeah. You're so happy for them, but you're grieving at the same time. You know, your baby is being in your house. I haven't had one launch.

Indeed.

Speaker 1 (03:04.75)
Fair

Speaker 2 (03:10.252)
all the way out yet, but he's in 10th grade and I am already feeling it nipping at my heels. just recognizing that all of us are going through it at different levels and grief is an inescapable part of the human experience. A couple of things about grief that I've learned, like its shape and its form. First of all, it doesn't go away. You just adapt to living with it and its intensity is different on different days.

But that hole that's left behind, especially when you lose a person, that hole is, it's always there. It's just learning how to live in a different way. Grief isn't linear.

Nope. No.

It's not like you're like, I'm in the grief recovery process, stage 2.3. I'll be moving next into 2.4. That would be kind of... Wouldn't it be glorious?

a nice grief is a sucker punch. Yes. Over and over again. It was yeah. Linear would be nice, but that's, know, we're humans. Things are messy.

Speaker 2 (04:08.639)
Over and

Really is.

Speaker 2 (04:16.418)
I think also our bodies remember, even if our brains forget. Yes, they do. So I had an experience this summer where I had hung out with my sister and we had gone and visited dad's grave and where he's put to rest. And in my mind, I was neatly compartmentalizing. Okay, made it through the one year mark, had this mark of dad being gone. Okay, I can move forward now.

Yes, yes they do, Lacey.

Speaker 2 (04:43.182)
Well then a couple of weeks later after visiting on the anniversary of his death, a couple of weeks later, I ended up in the ER with my very first ever EKG. No idea what was happening. I was experiencing symptoms that led to me getting a very quick EKG and it turned out to be literally nothing that they could explain. Thank God. I'm so happy that it was nothing that anyone could explain. was probably like really expensive heartburn.

mixed with a little dash of a panic attack. Yes. Which are awful and I had never really experienced like this and everything in me was just screaming something's really, really wrong. Something's really, really wrong. They ran the EKG, they ran all my labs. Everything was literally within boundaries of being normal and we just kind of chalked it up to, what a freak thing. We don't know what to this off, but.

It happens again, like we now have documented the first round of it, all that stuff with the doctor, right? So in the ER, I go home, next day I felt fine, my expensive heartburn went away, I calmed myself down, went home and the next day I was just in the middle of my workout in that flow state, bebopping around and it hit me, holy shit, yesterday marked the day that we actually buried my dad. And I had compartmentalized in my mind,

I'm done, I already acknowledged dad's passing. I'm done with that. And my body said, no, you're not.

No, your body was speaking loud and clear. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:17.398)
Yeah, like we remember this day. Lacey, mind, body, spirit, let's get in alignment here. We remember the day. I don't wish anyone to experience burying your parents, unfortunately, or fortunately. mean, yes, I hope we all outlive our parents, but we're gonna experience it. And it's a whole thing. And I just wanted to bebop right past it and my body remembered. So your body keeps score is a real thing. Your body remembers.

So if you're dealing with grief and you think that you can just mentally push your way through or emotionally tough it out or block it out, it's going to show up. And so I would really recommend on those anniversary dates of the hard things, give yourself the space and the grace. And if you're in a position where you have that trusted relationship or you're a leader of a team, communicate. These are going to be really hard days. I'm planning them really light.

Maybe they're gonna be great days and that's fine too, but don't assume you can just mentally muscle your way through it. Cause I can't.

Yeah. Yikes. Yeah. You can't. So often we think we can. And like you said, the body just has other ideas. I just want to jump in and say when I was going through my divorce and this was eight years, it was a long time ago. I will still experience not nearly as much as before, but I will still experience shocking amounts of bodily pain, aches, pains.

It shifts too. Like I can't really pinpoint it. It's just kind of like this wash of pain throughout the body, especially on certain anniversaries. Some years I feel it more than other years. I never really know. And again, this is eight, nine years ago and still, know.

Speaker 2 (08:04.398)
The not linear part. Year two was great. Year five, I wanted to die. I was all right.

I've absolutely had years where I felt like, I need to go to the hospital? Like, something's going on with my heart, or am I just having the most epic panic attack I've ever had? You have to kind of create space for yourself to, I don't know, be a human being. I'm certainly preaching this to myself, because so often I'm like, I'm fine, I'm fine. Like, we all do this, where we're like, I'm fine, I've got stuff to do, and the body's like, no, you're gonna have some reinforced rest today.

Yeah, that's a great bridge to the other thing that I learned is man, am I good at overestimating my own capacity during grief or a rough path. Things that I look back on and I'm like, I can't believe I thought I was functional in this situation.

Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 (08:53.158)
sure. Yikes. Do you feel as time has gone on, you have actually, well, I guess for lack of a better term, learned from that and given yourself more time and space for flexibility? Do you feel like that's something you've become more aware of as time has gone on?

before this summer I would have said yes, but then I had my whole hospital incident. I think yes and yes and I have to keep relearning it in different ways. For example, when my father-in-law died, within a week of his death, I thought I was good to go do a one-to-one session with a client. What the hell was I doing? One week?

I we remember this.

team is telling me, take it off, we're going to clear your schedule. And I'm like, I can do it. Yeah. I very vividly remember. I don't remember much from that whole first week after he died, by the way. I really don't remember much, but I do remember being in that meeting and just realizing I was completely disassociated. had no business being in that session. And even my client going, why are you here? Right.

What are you

Speaker 2 (10:04.206)
What are you doing here? Right. I learned from that. Don't think that I can just within a week, two weeks, even a month after a major loss, my mental capacity is going to be down and my disassociation is going to be high. Just kind of feeling like I'm floating above the room and recognizing that. Recognizing that that's a reality. The other thing is recognizing when I'm communicating with my team, sharing here's where my capacity is at.

Normally, I'm functioning at like an eight, meaning one to 10. Eight's a pretty average. Like I got a lot of capacity, I can flex, I can move. I can have a lot of tabs open for lack of a better expression. I can have a lot of tabs open, keep track pretty much of what needs to be happening in each of those tabs. I thought I was probably at a four. No, looking back, my capacity, I was probably at a two. Of being able to manage any level of complexity.

us.

Speaker 2 (11:02.914)
Having a team that I'm vulnerable with and just telling that I don't need to go into a lot of the deep vulnerable details about the grief, but the fact that grief is happening, I'm not remembering things right now well. I'm not managing complexity well. I'm going to need you to help me carry things and set up systems to basically babysit me on some deadlines that I have to fulfill if it can't be delegated because I just don't remember anything.

And I literally remember telling you guys my short-term memory is completely shot. So I'm going to look right at you and tell you, great, I'll do that as soon as we get off this call and then not do it because I will not remember.

They will remember it. Remember the moment you get off the call, you will not remember it. Yep. This is real. This is so real and it's terrifying. I've experienced this. You speak the words. All right. I'm to do that right away. And it immediately it's gone. It's just gone.

I don't know how to explain it if you haven't experienced it. Right.

It's like the words were never even spoken. It's scary, yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:08.268)
Yeah, at one point I was like, is this what dementia feels like?

my gosh, right? Holy cow. It's like those deep levels of grief. We're never the same. We're never going to be the same person again.

person's gone. They died with that experience.

Yeah, and our brains are permanently rewired and there's so much to unfold there and figure out and just time. There's so much time that has to just pass. Yeah. And figuring out the new normal.

think that also lends itself well to just the need, especially when we're high performers, high achievers, we push really hard, we want a compartmentalization disassociation. Those are my best friends. Not really. They used to be.

Speaker 1 (12:49.07)
Hello darkness my old friend. Right?

So recognizing I actually needed to give myself the permission to just fall apart and be a hot mess for a while. yeah, no. Yes, not layer the fact that my capacity was shrunk down to just a fraction and my inability to remember things and having to once I recognize I have no business doing one to ones right now with our external clients, shifting all of that around and giving myself permission with.

critical.

Speaker 2 (13:23.048)
out shame and guilt, to not attach a whole bunch of shoulds. I like to say don't should all over yourself, right? Yes. Easier said than done. Easier to tell other people not to do that than to apply it internally. Here's the thing about grief. The wave is coming and multiple waves of it are coming. You can't outrun it. If you try to outrun it, it's going to be like running up the beach and the wave just comes and snags you. You can't outrun it and it's going to pull you out to sea.

And if you fight it, you're gonna fight, fight, fight. You're gonna exhaust yourself clawing your way back up to the shore, but you can't really break free of that tide. It's gonna grab you again and pull you back out. What I found in my experience, if I allow myself, instead of running from the wave, turning and facing the wave and diving, I love the ocean, diving down when the wave comes at you, diving into the wave instead of running from it.

Yes.

The only way is to face it and go through. And there's so many times I don't want to deal with it, but grief doesn't wait for you to be ready. And so you can prolong the process and exhaust yourself trying to run from the waves and swim up the beach or swim and claw your way up the sand, but until you can turn and face that wave and dive through it and then allow the tide to take you and then swim with the tide sideways and then get yourself out of the water.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:49.73)
That is, for me, what I have had to learn how to do. And I, for way too long and way too many grief instances in my life, thought the best thing to do was turn and run up the beach. Run up to the beach, run away, back to the wave, go. And we all know you can't turn your back on the ocean. How many times have we heard, don't ever turn your back on the ocean?

So true, yeah. You're absolutely right. The only way out is through. It's so painful, but it's so true that if you don't feel it, you cannot heal it. It's not trite. I mean, that is just the truth. As someone who probably likes my own feelings a little too much, says the musician, even as much as I love the feelings, there are plenty of days where I just want to be numb. I just want to be so numb.

but I remind myself of, well, what do you already know about grief? Yes. Those things are still true.

And I think in that numbness, it's not like, I'm just going to be numb and ignore, and so my capacity will come back. It takes so much energy for you to numb.

No!

Speaker 1 (15:59.242)
in the moment when the wave of grief hits and you are crying like you've never cried before and you're feeling like this level of pain, the wave does recede. And every time you allow yourself to go into the grief and go a little bit deeper and go a little bit deeper, it's very painful, but it is so much more painful. And I will even say damaging to your health. If you continue to numb, that will suck the life right out of you and definitely keep you from healing. And it sure doesn't help.

your loved ones around you who are dealing with their own version of grief as well.

Right. And I think in the leadership role, having conversations with your team about, here's some days I think are going to probably be rough, anniversary days and being honest about that. Also being honest about reduced capacity. I think I was at least a year before I felt like my capacity was coming back and then I got hit with another one, another loss. And so my team has definitely dealt with me not firing at my best for a while.

but open and honest communication and saying, here's where I'm at, here's where my capacity's at, here's the check, and giving them permission to help me see when I may be dropping the ball because of capacity stuff and thinking again overestimating where I'm at, asking them to point this out. When you see me doing this, tell me. For the first round of losing my father-in-law, I got away with a lot of BS with my team. I got away with a lot.

I was pushed back and I was like, nah, I can do this. I got it. Second round, my team was like, no, girl, bye. We're basically blocking you, locking you out of everything. right. We're taking the reins, go, we're clearing two weeks. And that was exactly what I needed. And I had previously given them permission. Hey, I know I screwed up.

Speaker 1 (17:40.738)
Yep, we did that.

Speaker 2 (17:55.734)
I know I pushed too hard. didn't allow myself the time I actually needed. So open, honest communication, knowing that you think you're great and you're doing a team a service by just hanging in there, you're making their jobs harder because you're a hot mess.

Well, and I will also say too, and we even gone over this in other podcasts with other guests, that when you as a leader display a healthy way of handling grief, and especially in your communication with your team, you're showing them that, hey, when the grief hits you, when life happens and things happen to you, I'm showing you that you also have the permission to be human, to take time off, that you don't have to muscle through. And like you said,

Newsflash, your work's gonna kinda suck if you try to muscle through, so don't even bother, guys. The communication of that with your team sets a really healthy precedent for them and relieves a lot of unrealistic expectations.

just

Speaker 2 (18:57.678)
And I'll tell you the wildest things happen. You think, my brain knows I wouldn't try to show up for something big when I have someone in my life dying. No, we still try to think we could just, I don't know what.

had a keynote.

What short circuits? I've not only seen it in me, I've seen it in others as well. We think we can just keep showing up at the same level, even if our brains in the moment of not in the middle of the experience previously knew it. I think we just kick into that fight, flight, freeze. Our frontal cortex shuts down and we go into, as we should, I mean, we're in a crisis, we go into dysregulation and just think we are fine.

yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:40.172)
We know we're not fine, but we don't know how not fine we are. It's kind of like being in shock where you think you're okay, but you're not.

Yes, that's a very accurate way of putting it. Yeah. And we just keep trying to do the things and we're just completely cut off. Well, this is a really big topic and definitely we can revisit this. We can do this in little chunks. Yes. It's a lot to take in. Yes. There's a lot there that we've shared in just leading through grief and managing through that and communicating with your team and managing yourself through the grief.

Lacey, is there anything else you would like to add to this portion? gosh. Yeah, I mean there's so much.

Yeah, I think if you take anything away, it's give yourself permission to be fully human without attaching guilt or shame to the fact that you're going to need to slow down. Know that you gotta turn and face those waves and sometimes we do have to run up the beach, you know, a few times. I still haven't listened to my dad's music. That's a wave I'm not ready to dive through yet. Recognizing though that just pretending everything's fine and trying to keep going.

because we think that's what we're supposed to do and how we're supposed to show up as a leader is a lie. That is not the truth. And being honest with your team about where you're at, where your capacity's at, and not shaming yourself for being a human, also recognizing you're likely in shock. So you're going to be thinking that you're way better than you're actually doing and acknowledge that your best work is not going to happen right now, especially in the first few weeks, months after.

Speaker 2 (21:20.758)
a tremendous loss. Giving yourself all of that permission, adjusting your workload accordingly, delegating accordingly, setting up the guardrails for yourself. These are all things that you can do to set your team up for success and create the space you need for yourself to just be in your humanity. We all need that. And it will come for us whether we plan for it or not. Yep.

us.

Speaker 1 (21:44.884)
That's true. That is absolutely true. Well, Lacey, thank you so much for sharing from your own experiences. It's been a very difficult past two years filled with a lot of very deep grief. And so I appreciate you sharing from where you are now. And I hope that listeners and viewers, you're able to relate or glean something from this, some degree of comfort.

even just guidance and direction, knowing that it's okay to be human. Yes. And please do be human. You can't allow yourself. You can't avoid it. Well, thanks again, Lacey. Really appreciate your time and sharing and listeners go manage like a leader. Thanks for listening to Confessions of a Terrible Leader. If you're feeling brave and have your own terrible leader story that you'd like to share, head over to TranscendLeadershipCollective.com slash podcast to fill out a guest application. We'd love to hear from you.

Confessions of a Terrible Leader is hosted by Lacey Nelson and produced and edited by Fixation Point Productions. Music is by Leif Olsen and Mary Skop from the band The Number of Months. Confessions of a Terrible Leader is a free leadership resource offered by Transcend Leadership Collective. If you are ready to refuse the limits of average leadership and join the leadership revolution, visit TranscendLeadershipCollective.com to check out our offerings for engaging workshops, strategic planning, and more.

Thank you so much for listening. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave us a review. And until next time, go manage like a leader.