Vulnerability: A Key to Effective Leadership, feat. Colleen Malmassari of Back40 Advisors

Speaker 1 (00:00.238)
you

Welcome to Confessions of a Terrible Leader, where real leaders share the raw truth about the lessons they learned the hard way so you don't have to. Join our host, Lacey Nelson, founder of Transcend Leadership Collective and former Terrible Leader. On this podcast, we invite you to step into the confessional and get real with the messy stories and behind the scenes reality of leadership. Let's get to it.

Speaker 2 (00:27.38)
and welcome back to Confessions of a Terrible Leader. I'm your host and former terrible leader, Lacey Nelson. I am so thrilled to introduce a personal friend of mine who's also an incredible practitioner of what she does. And I am so excited to dig in today, Colleen Malvasari. Welcome to the show. So glad you're here. Colleen is the founder of Back40 Advisors.

And her specialty are core HR operations. And when I tell you that Colleen is a unicorn when it comes to how she does what she does, there's a reason this woman founded her own company. I cannot wait to dig in. Colleen, welcome to the show. I'm so glad you're

Yes, I am glad too. This has been in the works for longer than you were actually having a podcast.

still a solopreneur. So Colleen and I go way back. She was one of the very first people when she was doing HR at a major vertically integrated fruit company. She was one of the very first big places that took a risk on my little solopreneur venture and was foundational in getting to where we're at. So go check out LinkedIn. All the deets are on there. But Colleen, thank you so much for giving me that start and I am thrilled.

Now that you're out on your own to like return the favor and the energy, tell us a little bit about Back 40 Advisors and just a truncated version of what was your past? How did you go from accounting originally to now where you're at?

Speaker 1 (02:09.006)
Thank you. So yeah, I'm a trained accountant. went to school, got my undergraduate in accounting. In that time period, realized that financial math that balances at the end of the day is not as interesting to me as human math that never balances. that's a cheeky way of saying I was more interested in the people parts of my client work and my own work teams.

So ventured into human resources, got to work with some phenomenal employers in the ag industry. I even had a brief stint in a credit union. That was my true launching into human resources. About the time I had my daughter, fast forward, that's when I met you and we had kiddos in the same preschool. And it was at one of those school auctions that I bid on your services.

The only one. Let's be real. She won because she was the only bitter. Bless her.

And I was circling the table to make sure I was gonna win.

Well, good thing you didn't have to work very hard for that, but I'm glad. I am glad you won. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (03:23.594)
Yeah. Then as I progressed, just this idea of kind of coming back into not necessarily public accounting and due accounting, but coming back and serving multiple clients with the knowledge I gained in industry and being able to give it on a fractional basis. Cause I know there's a need, especially for those small to medium sized businesses that goes back to my family's roots as entrepreneurs and small businesses. And I just have a passion for them. We can get into that more, but

Back 40 is just that, is the fun way of helping pay attention to your back office functions. In farming, there is generally a front 40 acreage and a back 40 acreage. And the front 40 acreage is dialed in, it's well producing, it's where you give the tours, it has your highest margin generally. And then that back 40 acreage tends to be a little bit messy. There is weeds.

maybe a feral animal that you've been trying to get rid of, broken pipes, just, it needs some attention. And that for a lot of businesses is similar in your back office and your revenue streams and your operations is right. The focus goes in the front and the team in the back is left trying to pin it all together and get that reports up to the decision makers. And so that's where I really want to focus is in that back 40 part of.

people's businesses.

I love that and so true. Our public facing stuff is so shiny, but oftentimes I describe it like embroidery when you're making a beautiful embroidered picture in the front, but then you flip it over and it's just this angle.

Speaker 1 (05:04.014)
That's another great, yes, yes, and mine's full of knots and former cuss words.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Starts and stops of like different stitches that don't show on the front, but they're all over the back. So what is it about the back 40 and working in that back messy parts that, I mean, that's not where most people want to spend their time is in the mess, right? What is it about that that is exciting to you?

Yeah, that's a good point. And I think that's my life journey of trying to figure some of that out, but I am drawn to it, right? For so long, I have witnessed, and this started when I was in my public accounting early career days, is just the reactive chaos to business. And if we can put some systems and processes into place and have the training and have the right skill sets and all of those things can align.

You can see such amazing results that trans here we go, transcend through the business into hopefully financial rewards for the owner, for the employees, right. And full circle back and back around. So that, and you and I have talked about this is we came from messy upbringings, traumatic upbringings. I'm going to say, yes, that has wired me to run into fires, so to speak.

and take on those projects that no one else really likes. And I find value in it in trying to figure out what's the core route and how do we do minor shifts that are effective and sustainable so that we're not repeating this loop.

Speaker 2 (06:51.662)
Yes. It's such a good point about the minor shifts. I think in both of our work, oftentimes organizations can feel like, I don't have the time to really commit because they're imagining this big major systemic overhaul that is going to just shake the whole place up and dump everything upside down. Sometimes that's necessary, but usually, like you alluded to, it's usually not. Usually it's small, sustainable shifts.

Yeah. And in my work, sometimes even it's mindset shifts for the executives. I just wrapped up a coaching session with an executive that we all know. And he said, this was so profound for me because I knew it on the edges, but I hadn't crystallized yet that I'm shifting into a new phase of my career in becoming the mentor, the advisor.

And really embracing for the first time, relationships are the work. Relationships are the work. That was huge for him. Does that show up all over the place in little ways? It does, but is it like a major thing that's going to now shake up the way everything operates? No.

And it shouldn't. If we're doing our jobs correctly, it shouldn't. We don't need to become this whole new person and internally and externally to present ourselves to our teams. We shouldn't have to.

Right. No. Which leads to a really interesting topic that I know we both love. And both of us having come from a background of, you know, high ACES scores, adverse childhood experience, which

Speaker 1 (08:32.353)
I didn't know until only 10 years ago. I was like, what is this acronym? What are ACEs? Right? And then I started learning. was like, yeah, yeah.

Uh-huh. Check. my. my. Yeah. I have a high number. For real. Same experience. I mean, have social work background. I've known it for a long time, but when I was introduced to it, was like, mine is quite high. So with all of that, knowing all of that and

understanding like we both probably have a very strong sense of we had to survive, we had to learn how to survive and live in survival mode. And then those survival modes eventually stop serving us once all of the crisis, when we're removed from it, our body has to like rewire like, now how do we do things? But that usually takes a lot of intention. And one of the things that I'm always working on

and getting much, much, much better at over the years is vulnerability. Because for me and my wiring and my personality profile, you will, vulnerability, it feels extremely scary. But I want to know as a core HR operating specialist, how do you understand vulnerability in the workplace? And where do you think we get it wrong? Because I think a lot of people have a misconception, but I want to hear what you think.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:59.104)
Yeah. I'll use buzz terms that are used today because it changes over time, right? So what we're focusing on, you know, currently some of those terms is someone being able to show up in their authentic self. Yep. Yep. Have the psychological safety to be able to fail or have the wrong answer, which is also a failure in some ways. And to know that that's okay.

It does, yes.

Speaker 1 (10:28.366)
And that's a learning opportunity and to move forward. Of course, we have differences if someone is repeating that mistake over and over. That's a different topic. But through failure, we find growth. I think we as a society continue to have such a strong hustle.

I was raised with a hustle. see the memes of like you and a sibling talking about how instead of getting generational wealth, you got childhood trauma. Right. There's a lot to that. That's one of my things that I have to work on, keep focused, but conscious is that strong hustle for acceptance, which then early on in my career was having low boundaries, saying yes.

as a great.

Speaker 1 (11:17.46)
not having trust in other people to do the work and not knowing to ask how to be trained on that, to learn the tips of how to review other people's work. But I think some of those examples that I've learned through are things that I see in conversations I'm having when we have a breakdown in communication between team members and operational failures is really then breaking down the why is that communication not happening.

Mm-hmm.

So you get in, you're invited in, and they flipped over the embroidery, you're invited into the back 40. What are the common themes that you are seeing when you're like, oh, because we know patterns emerge, right? There's patterns that are going to be pretty consistent across organizations and we can see them pretty quickly when we have the experience. What are those for you in your world, in your work? What are the patterns that keep showing up on that backside?

Yeah, a little bit of a different spin than maybe where you're coming in and serving really the same group of leaders in business. I'm coming in much more from a compliance policy, strategic, you're strategic too, but strategic planning of workforce and where to plug people in.

Right, I don't do that. I tell them to call you, but yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:39.55)
Yes. And vice versa when they're like, I'm looking for a coach. I'm like, I know this great person. So a lot of times where I'm educating those business leaders on what they don't know, right? They're really good at their craft. They are really good at that. But again, as we've done in our society, if you want to raise up,

You have to start having a team underneath you and leveraging and delegating to get the volume of work done. And not everyone is trained on how to a leader and to communicate. One of the conversations I have quite a bit is that unfortunately today, employment law doesn't follow the human heart. I get called into a situation that is now blown up and unfortunately the employer

Gosh, so true.

Speaker 1 (13:34.082)
has done what they thought was right, which may not agree with employment law, or they really thought they were serving the employee correctly and now they've left the business full of risk and exposure. And so there's times where we are now walking backwards and undoing some of those stitches, pulling out, pulling out and then restarting and leading them through.

Yes.

Speaker 1 (14:02.286)
How to have that uncomfortable conversation with their employee of saying I was wrong. I was wrong or I didn't understand fully. didn't take the time or I didn't in naive. How do you say that word? However, it's 1130 and I haven't had enough coffee yet. you know, I'll say coffee, but you know,

You want to say it.

Speaker 2 (14:29.254)
I know it's tea.

So helping lead that business owner into that vulnerable state where they can admit that there was a wrong, but their intention was pure and they didn't know. Yes.

It usually is. It usually is. We work with a lot of those medium sized, small medium sized businesses and even up into the large ones, it is very, very rare that there's like a villainous leader. I know that that can be a misconception out there or, you know, they're just in it for the money. And I'm like, well, in some instances, yes. In many, many, many more instances, they're operating on razor thin margins and they want to do more for their people.

Yes.

Speaker 2 (15:12.95)
they're trying to do the right thing. Sometimes they're not in compliance, as you said, or their communication skills are lacking. And so they're not capable of making sure the message that they're trying to get across is being received. So very similar. It presents in different ways.

will come in when there's drama, turmoil, or they're like, we don't have a professional development on ramp for people. Nobody knows the pathway. We help create those pathways, offer training, train the emerging leaders, and you're taking it from more compliance, logistical standard, but it's so fascinating and not surprising that the root issue, typically the root issues are the same. Best intentions, intention not aligning with impact.

and lacking in those fundamental communication skills that worked for a little bit, but as the company grew, what was working isn't working anymore. Is that pretty good synopsis?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And to come in in that trusted place because it is lonely. Yes. As a leader in whatever capacity, especially small to medium sized businesses where you don't yet have the capacity to have a large administrative team where you can have collaboration.

Yeah

Speaker 1 (16:28.748)
And so it can be very lonely. And when an employee starts to have a concern or complaint, or even a little something that comes across as drama, right? that's the point. Right. That's when everything shuts down. And so to have someone that they can pick up the phone and say, am I on the right track? I have to be careful in those conversations because I'm not an attorney and cannot give a legal advice. Right. But from a practicality of employment law.

especially here in Washington state and from best practices. Okay, let's talk through that. And then if I need to, then we're saying, call your legal counsel to make sure that they'll.

Yeah, I also say that. Yes, when needed. So to protect the guilty, know, change all the names or, you know, give us an amalgamation of stories. But what is a memorable experience of going into a business? They're like, Colleen, I need your help. I just know I'm not doing something right here. What does that look like? So people can really wrap their heads around, that's what she does.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:32.076)
Yeah, all of my conversations are talking about talent, how to find them, how to attract them, how to hire them, how to retain them, how to measure them, and then some cases discipline them and eventually in their life cycle, exit them either voluntarily or involuntarily. But one of the conversations I have the most is around how to pay, compensate,

With Washington state standards being so much higher than the federal standards, where we're talking about paid sick leave. In fact, I just this month had two conversations with different employers in different parts of the state about paid sick leave and it not being calculated correctly. Again, pure intentions, but they either got bad advice or their record keeping just didn't support.

what they were doing and so now the employee has made up a story as to what is happening or their spouse is looking at things and saying how are you paid because this does not look correct and without that again the documentation to support it it's left to the employees interpretation so paid sick leave or even

I just got a phone call from my employee and they say I need to raise their wage to $90,000. Because they're salaried, right? They're currently at 60. I can't afford a $30,000 wage. Well, yes, most people can't afford a $30,000 increase. And that's not what they're saying. All you have to do is turn them to hourly, but that has such a long conversation, right?

their salary. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:15.022)
Still today, a salary compensation assumes a certain status of authority because we haven't defined who has the authority and why they have the authority in the position. so having the pay of a salary means that you have a certain authority instead of actually the knowledge and the details of your position. Yes.

And then having to go back to hourly and that feeling to the employee as a demotion. Right. And so working through that communication of it not being a demotion, in fact, it may even benefit you.

was just going to say as the employer, I'd be going, oh no, because salaried employees typically work a lot of hours that they're going to still need to work. And if I didn't classify them right, it is going to, maybe not 30,000 more, but it's going to get more expensive.

Right. And often people were incorrectly classified because the classification justification for most business owners was, I'm paying them a lot of overtime. I'm just going to classify them into salary when they didn't actually follow the rules of is that Moody's test correct and the actual requirements of the FLSA. Here, I'm going to geek out now. So. I love it.

Yes. See, this is why you call Colleen, because she just has all this in her brain and she will ask the right questions, interpret the government websites. Because I'll be honest, I get on there and try to DIY it sometimes. And I'm like, I'm reading it, but I can't really understand how it applies to me. And then I get nervous.

Speaker 1 (20:59.182)
I find it difficult too because they've tried to make it in lay terms. And then unfortunately gives a different interpretation and it's hard to read the RCWs in the wax. And that's where it's really at. Yep. Yes. Call me. I'll help.

Yes, yes. Now I'm like, gosh, I need to double check my salary, people. I think I met all the requirements.

Well, and I'll give the plug, every business owner should have on their checklist at least once a year to revisit those, because the rules do change. The other part of this is they're changing quickly. They're changing quickly. And when you're focused on your front 40, it's hard to keep up with all those other functions that are in that back administration.

100%. In my mind, I'm like, well, I hired them, they're classified. I know it was right at the time. Done. It leaves my awareness of things I'm going to focus on unless I talk to people like you.

And sometimes I'm very lonely at a party because people are like,

Speaker 1 (22:03.86)
Or like I have conversations of, know I have the unpopular voice, but you've hired me to give you the information so you can make a sound decision. that's the other type of conversation I get to have with business owners is, know, no one's going to tell me how to run my business. And they're like, you're right.

Yes.

Speaker 1 (22:23.574)
And I'm not going to do that too, but you're paying me to give you information so you can make a decision. And at the end of the day, is still your choice. And if you want to take on the risk to not follow it, or you have a phase in plan, that is your decision. And again, that is going to be best with a conversation with your attorney to make sure they'll support you in that.

Right. A hundred percent. Okay, Colleen, it is that time in the interview where I get to, and by the way, she's not boring at parties. She's lying. She's always surrounded by people and tells great stories, which it is your turn to step into the confessional and tell us your leadership mistakes.

I know you have had many teams that you have supervised, many, many stints in the leadership seat, and also know because we're both honest and vulnerable, you haven't always done it the right way or well. So what story do you have to share with us today? Your terrible leader moment. Welcome to the confessional.

Thank you. Feels good to be here. Gosh, I'll go back to those really early days where I was strong in my hustle because that was all the examples I had growing up is we work hard.

Yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (23:38.54)
We work hard and then going into a workplace where there's much more lifestyles and diversity of what work hard is. assumed that everyone that I was leading was going to need to match me in that hustle. So, yep, I demanded, I'll say that I demanded and I'll say sorry to those people. I believe I have said that to their face as well.

Unknowingly, unknowingly, I didn't know how to adopt my style to be tolerant of how other people perform and the obligations in their life. And because I was so focused on those goals and action items for my own hustle and what I wanted to achieve for myself, I imposed those. And I think people will also say that of me still today.

And so this is a continue. This is my confession. This is my continuing work. is right trying to do that. And you've met my spouse and there's been times where he's like, can we just be? Do we need another project? Do we really need another thing? And I'm like, I look at him like, what?

What are you doing?

I don't get it, right? And I have to check myself and like, okay, yes, yes. The older I have gotten, the more I have required for that downtime and for that time to be more tolerant of others. And I've learned to not take it personal because it's really not about me.

Speaker 1 (25:15.758)
It's not about me at all. It's about them and supporting them and growing them into a role that elevates them so that I can keep on new things. In the beginning, like I said, I didn't have the boundaries or the trust. And so they needed to walk with me.

Yeah. You were a classic pace setter. Keep up. Keep up. Let's go. And if you can't keep up, then get out of my way. Yeah.

Yeah. And early in my career, I didn't have female leaders who had the invisible labor at their homes, those requirements. And so they were my models for that hustle, which furthered my upbringing hustle. And then to see those female leaders early on that didn't have that. And the ones who did have the invisible labor in their household and those requirements, they were no longer on a forward track.

Right. As viewed by others. So it took me a long time to work through that as well. Yeah.

my gosh, we haven't even touched being a mom and parenting as female entrepreneurs. You're going to have to come back because we're running out of time. love it. Well, you'll have to come back and we'll to have a whole discussion about moming as female entrepreneurs. Maybe we'll do it around Mother's Day. That could be fun. Yeah. my gosh, Colleen, you've offered

Speaker 1 (26:24.846)
love it.

Speaker 1 (26:34.264)
That could be really fun.

So many valuable insights. I appreciate your vulnerability and sharing how you've grown, your story, a peek behind the curtain into, you know, not a picture perfect childhood and how that shapes us. as we can touch on how it impacts our parenting, right? That's a whole thing.

Thank you.

So, thank you so much for your time today, for your experience, for your expertise. People that are listening to this and they're like, yeah, I need to get in touch with her. What's the best way to find you and connect?

Oh, awesome. Yeah. Thank you. I have a website, www. we still say? Yeah. I hear my team like rolling their eyes at me right now, but yeah, back 40 with the number 40 advisors.com.

Speaker 2 (27:19.788)
Yep, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (27:29.248)
Perfect. And we'll drop the links in the show notes so people can just click on them there.

I'm also on social media and probably, you know, on the sideline of a soccer pitch.

Yeah, a lot, a lot. Yes. I know Colleen is active on LinkedIn. That's a great place to connect as well. Thank you so much. We're definitely going to have to do a round two. This was so much fun and I appreciate you.

Thank you. gosh, this has been good.

Okay, friends, until next time, you know the drill, go manage like a leader. Thanks for listening to Confessions of a Terrible Leader. If you're feeling brave and have your own terrible leader story that you'd like to share, head over to TranscendLeadershipCollective.com slash podcast to fill out a guest application. We'd love to hear from you. Confessions of a Terrible Leader is hosted by Lacey Nelson and produced and edited by Fixation Point Productions. Music is by Leif Olsen and Mary Scott from the band The Number of Months.

Speaker 2 (28:27.81)
Confessions of a Terrible Leader is a free leadership resource offered by Transcend Leadership Collective. If you are ready to refuse the limits of average leadership and join the leadership revolution, visit TranscendLeadershipCollective.com to check out our offerings for engaging workshops, strategic planning, and more. Thank you so much for listening. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave us a review. And until next time, go manage like a leader.

Speaker 1 (28:53.942)
you