Mastering Stoic Empathy: Shermin Kruse on Leadership, Authenticity, and Overcoming Challenges
Welcome to Confessions of a
Terrible Leader, where real leaders
share the raw truth about the
lessons they learn the hard way.
So you don't have to join our host,
Lacey Nelson, founder of Trans and
Leadership Collective, and former
terrible leader on this podcast.
We invite you to step into the
confessional and get real with
the messy stories and behind the
scenes reality of leadership.
Let's get to it.
Layci Nelson: Hello friends, and welcome
back to Confessions of a Terrible Leader.
I'm your host and former terrible
leader herself, Lacey Nelson.
I could not be more thrilled to
introduce you to Charmine Cruz today.
She's an author, a professor, a
TEDx producer, and currently on
tour promoting stoic empathy.
Look up her name, we're
gonna drop all the links.
She is brilliant woman.
I have so many questions.
Share.
Welcome to the show.
Well, thank you Lacey.
I really appreciate it.
Shermin Kruse: I thought we were
just gonna talk about drinking,
so I'm a little confused about
the direction this podcast taking.
Layci Nelson: I mean, we
absolutely can talk about that.
I mean, what is your favorite drink?
Shermin Kruse: Okay.
I do have to say that I'm Iranian.
I was born in Iran.
Mm-hmm.
And alcohol's illegal because it's an
Islamic Republic, so everybody makes
moonshine in their bathtub or whatever.
And the vodka tastes like turpentine.
Mm.
So when you, when you immigrate and
you taste the vodka and you think,
oh my God, this is like water.
It's so smooth.
But I have actually learned as
I've gotten older that I can't
really drink as much anymore.
Mean I can't, but then I'll be
stupid for three days afterwards.
Yes.
What is that business?
It's middle age, I guess.
Yes.
So I find the only reliable form
of alcohol for me at this point
in my life is one glass, and I
sip it of really old aged tequila.
That's all I can drink and I'm good to go.
Layci Nelson: And you
don't pay for it the next
Shermin Kruse: day?
I don't
Layci Nelson: pay for it,
Shermin Kruse: no.
If I space it out, if I sip it,
if it's good tequila, if it's
Layci Nelson: nice
Shermin Kruse: and smooth,
Layci Nelson: and if I have one.
That's all I drink.
How about you?
Oh gosh.
Well, I live in the heart of beer and
wine country, so while I do greatly
enjoy beer, I love beer and I love wine.
I also am at that point in life
where it does not love me back.
Yeah.
So I.
I have to choose carefully when I
do choose to consume and not a lot.
So yeah.
I also find if I just do like a schooner,
like a little one of a beer, I'm good.
But if I have a whole pint, I
Shermin Kruse: know
Layci Nelson: just one the
next day I just am dragging.
Yeah, my brain just forgets what
it does and how to function.
Shermin Kruse: There's this really
great F Scott Fitzgerald quote that says
something along the lines of, and I'm sure
I'll misquoted, but generally it says.
I don't miss the innocence of youth.
I miss the experience of
the loss of innocence.
Mm-hmm.
And I always think about that
with relation to my inability
to be a decent party person.
Now,
boring.
Layci Nelson: I mean, I wanna
be in bed by nine 30 and that's
not even an exaggeration.
Right.
That's good.
Now the person that goes to bed at nine
30, I'm up at five 30 and I'm my best.
Between five 30 and nine in the morning.
You know That's true.
My
Shermin Kruse: toxic trait is
telling people I'm look for anything.
But what I mean is I
have to be home by eight.
Parking has to be easy.
The weather has to be good.
Layci Nelson: Right, right, right.
Shermin Kruse: There should be food
Layci Nelson: always.
All these qualifiers now.
Right.
Uh, and great non-alcoholic
beverage options.
Right, a cocktail.
We're so much fun.
I think all of our listeners
are dying to hang out with us.
Hang out with us.
Shermin Kruse: We're cool.
Layci Nelson: Oh my gosh.
Well segue this for me into stoic empathy.
What is it?
What is stoic empathy?
It's this
Shermin Kruse: sort of contradiction
in terms that I've learned
actually compliment one another
really, really well in life.
And it's this combination of stoic
resilience and empathic understanding.
And I actually learned it back in Iran
in the good old days when, you know, we
were drinking our liquor from the bathtub
and it was because we were living so.
The revolution, the Islamic
Revolution occurred in 1979.
One of the things that I think is
difficult for people to understand
is when the revolution occurred and
all these sweeping changes overtook
the country, the people themselves,
the citizens were unaccustomed to
these new rules and prohibitions.
They didn't exist a minute ago,
and now they exist, and so it's a
whole new landscape to maneuver.
It's a combination of
oppression, but also adaptation.
And then add to that, there was
a war, there was Iran, Iraq War
during that time started in 1980.
We went through the late eighties to
kill a million people and there was maybe
40 million people in Iran at the time.
And so that's one out of
every 40 people who died.
Oh my gosh.
That's a substantial proportion and
a lot of it in civilian attacks.
So was very similar to maybe what
IV is going through right now.
A missile strikes into the
capital city, et cetera.
Mm-hmm.
So we have this oppression, we
have this cultural shift, we
have all these narratives, and
then we have all these counter
narratives, and then there's the war.
So the shortages and the electricity
and the lack of hot water.
And you don't really know as a
child how to cope with all of this.
So what I learned is, listen, you
have to be somebody different outside
the home than you inside the home.
Mm.
And not about really big things,
but even about small things
like alcohol or western music.
Mm-hmm.
Or whether you host parties or
whether you wear your headscarf
or whatever it might be.
And so it became this, and it actually
resulted in a lot of difficulty in my
life in finding authenticity, which
has been a great challenge of mine.
But I learned how to read a.
I learned how to walk into a room
and utilize my empathy skills to
read the minds, thoughts, emotions of
the people around me, predict their
behavior, and then utilize, at that
time, I didn't know it was called
empathy or stoicism, but utilize
stoicism to gain emotional regulation
and control over myself so I could
modify my behavior during that instance
in order to stay safe or to succeed.
Yeah.
And then as I got older, the exploration
was, okay, now how do I make this
into something that's also authentic?
How do I bring this inward and just
find ways of representing my true selves
in situations where it's difficult
to be your true self because you're
very angry or very scared, or very
anxious or emotionally aroused, right?
Or you don't fit in right?
Who fits?
Fits in?
We all just pretend.
I mean, I dunno.
Anyone who genuinely feels like
they fit in, there are places when
I'm at home on the couch and I have
a child physically on top of me
and maybe a dog also on top of me.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And Princess Bride
praying in the background.
Okay.
I fit in.
Yeah.
Layci Nelson: Yeah.
Shermin Kruse: But the rest of the time,
man, I just trying to my, like a person a.
Layci Nelson: Why do we all think
everyone can see when we just admitted
we're all just bumping into each
other, trying to pretend we can see,
Shermin Kruse: well, here's what I'll say.
I love that question.
I think that's such an intelligent and
deep philosophical question, and we
could write seven treatises about that.
Okay.
I'll also say I do think our site improves
with age and with emotional control,
regulation and empathic understanding.
Mm-hmm.
At least for me, my site
has been transitory.
It comes and enter.
All of your closest friends, or even maybe
there's hostility, but it's a room, you
know, like your family at Thanksgiving.
Right.
Whatever it might be.
You know how to maneuver that space.
You've been in that space.
Mm-hmm.
It's a different level of sight.
It's a much more clear level of sight than
entering a boardroom for a negotiation
that you've never entered before or Right.
Coming in in a leadership position
in a new company, or having yourself.
Mm-hmm.
Hub,
full clarity, vision.
But I think it's safe to assume people
can see at various levels at various
times, and I can improve my site.
And it's really important for
me to understand that sometimes
people are behaving the way they're
behaving because they don't have
sight, and that's terrible for them.
But now I have to compensate for their
Layci Nelson: lack of sight.
What does that look like
in day-to-day interactions?
In settings like a boardroom
or in the workplace?
What does it look like to have people
that don't have the best sight,
and then what does it look like to
compensate for their lack of sight
while staying true to yourself?
I just asked a huge question.
I know.
I love it.
I love it.
What is the meaning of life, basically?
Yeah.
Can you unpack that for us in 20 minutes?
Thanks.
Shermin Kruse: I certainly don't
proclaim to be some sort of
guru or to have all the answer.
One of the things I would say is I
think that the number one method of
navigation would be to have a good
understanding and grounding in your own
moral sense and moral values, because
I'm not gonna tell you how to be moral.
Your morality.
Your morality and your
struggles are your struggles.
Maybe you struggle with conflict.
Maybe someone else
struggles with intimacy.
Mm-hmm.
The reality is that everyone's
struggles in these rooms are
very different from one another.
Everyone's demons are very different.
Yep.
Everyone's strengths and what
everyone values is different.
Yeah.
So step one is really just know thyself.
And also realize that in that space
between stimuli and response mm-hmm.
There's all of these external
factors impacting the middle space.
Power dynamics, racial dynamics, gender
dynamics, what country you live in.
Yep.
Economic status, all of those things.
But there's also you.
Mm-hmm.
You actually exist.
You're in this space between
stimuli and response.
And while the power dynamics external to
you also exist, and it would be foolish
to pretend they don't, it's equally
foolish to forget to see yourself in
that space and like your ability to
determine that self based partly on
the stimuli, your desired response and
all of the external power dynamics.
Layci Nelson: Yeah.
Shermin Kruse: So it's really
more about teaching people how to.
I'm not gonna pretend you're
gonna get full sight, but I
promise you won't be as blind.
Mm.
It does help regain some vision
into the room, and that's a
tremendous step towards power.
Yeah.
And integrity.
Yeah.
Not just power, but also authenticity,
integrity, value driven life, et cetera.
Layci Nelson: Oh yeah, a million percent.
That was a great answer to a question.
If we wanna take this to the really
practical level, let's say I'm prepping
for walking into an organization,
I'm going to make a big pitch,
and I kind of know these people.
It's not my home base, but I need
to win them over to the least.
Understanding this perspective.
With your amazing skills
negotiation, I'm coming to you
and I'm saying, Charmine, help me.
How would you prep me?
The first thing I would say
is, dude, you might fuck it
Shermin Kruse: up.
Yeah.
Am I allowed to swear on your show?
Absolutely.
Here's what the Stokes would say.
If you go back 2000 years, they would
say, here's the dichotomy of control.
There are things that are in your control,
primarily, your emotions, your intentions,
your judgments, your thoughts, and then
there are things outta your control.
You can influence them,
you cannot control them.
And so that would be the emotions
and tensions, judgments, feelings.
Mm-hmm.
Thoughts of other people.
They have this example and it's
such a great parallel to the pitch.
Actually, I think about this all
the time, or the job interview, the
example they give us of an archer,
you know, like a bow and arrow.
Mm-hmm.
And they talk about the ER preparing
for an archery competition.
And he has sized up all his arrows and he
has measured his bow and he has oiled it.
And he has perfected it, and he has
exercised his arm and he got good sleep
the night before and he ate a decent meal
and he showed up on time and he learned
as much as he could about his opponents.
Mm-hmm.
And he pulls the string, he
aims, and then he releases.
After the release, what happens
to that arrow is no longer in
the archer's control, right?
In any way, shape or form.
There could be a sudden gust of wind.
There could be small little divot
on the board that makes it go awry.
There could be un
Layci Nelson: earthquake.
Shermin Kruse: Yeah, a frat boy
that falls in front of it because
they had too much tequila because.
I control my preparation, my research,
my awareness of the room, my awareness
of myself, my engagement in the room.
I can control my own emotions, which
means I can control my anxiety.
Right.
That's why we take a deep
breath when we're nervous.
Mm-hmm.
Because we literally physically
slow down our heart rate and
change our blood pressure.
Mm-hmm.
We can actually physic ourselves.
I can control these things, but
here's what I can't control.
I can't control whether they buy the
product or whether I get the deal right?
And knowing that gives
you a humble confidence.
And then it allows you to focus
on the things that are here that
are immediately accessible to you.
And then one of the things I do in
the book, so apathy, is I teach you
how, okay, how do you read the room?
How do you better
understand your opponent?
How do you read yourself?
How do you control your anxiety?
How about your jealousy?
Right?
How do you control?
Because sometimes it seems
like it's not who you wanna be
and yet it's who you're right.
And so how do you change that and
being the person that really represents
your values and not just the momentary
emotional impression of things.
Layci Nelson: Power dynamics
is fascinating to me.
Has been since I was tiny.
Also have a very different story from
your own, but one that necessitated.
Being able to read a room and
understand who had the control, and
that has served me well, but also not
served me well in my life, depending
on how I've used it and tapped into
it, and my own awareness of myself.
A lot of our listeners are very into
professional personal development.
They are not on this podcast because they
think they have it all figured out, right?
You don't log onto confessions
of a terrible leader because you
know you've got life figured out.
We're a so recognized that recommendation.
Recommendation for continuing grow
our awareness in all the ways you.
Shermin Kruse: I'd love to do because
I think our time permits for it mm-hmm.
Is to just give you a couple of hints,
a couple of tips, a couple of tools.
Oh, please.
Yes.
And then it's nice and concrete
and people can use these tools.
Perfect.
A lot more of them in the
book and a lot of exercises.
And one of the things I do in the
book that your listeners and viewers
might find interesting is I also offer
the neuroscientific grounding and the
reasons why these tips, by the way, I.
So it's hard science there.
That was my attempt in this book.
Okay.
Let's talk about maybe a couple of
ways of reading the room, right?
Your empathic awareness of the mm-hmm.
Importance of due D heck, you go on A and
you Google the, before you show up, right?
Right.
Much less if you are involved
in a corporate merger or
if you're pitching a deal.
Right.
You get know not just the
company obviously, but also
the people in the room.
Mm-hmm.
And then when you're in the room,
the information that is available
to you that is not available to
you on social media is remarkable.
Let's talk a couple of ways about
how you can gather that information.
One thing you can do
reading body language.
They say that communication is 7 30, 8
55, 7% words, 38% tone, 55% body language.
We focus a lot on the words.
First of all, people lie in negotiations
Layci Nelson: all the time.
All the time.
Shermin Kruse: Yes.
I don't mean that as a
ethical disparagement.
Go higher than that.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, you could.
I mean, yeah, that's like every deal.
And so how do you
decipher beyond the words?
And some people talk about
body language, right?
Mm-hmm.
They teach you how to read body language.
We talk about this in the
book a little bit too.
How to judge open vulnerable body
language versus closed tight body
language to judge anxiety versus calm.
How to try to judge lies.
But the thing nobody ever talks about
is tone, and it's shocking after body
language, especially in today's world
being.
And the rule of thumb for this,
by the way, to you listeners and
viewers out there, is first you
have to establish a baseline.
Mm-hmm.
This is really important.
Mm-hmm.
And this is, by the way,
why we have small talk.
I'm pretty sure this is the only
reason why small talk exists,
because there's really no other
social utility served by small talk.
Mm-hmm.
Other than serving as a baseline
for tone and body language.
Does this person have a high pitch tone?
Do they have a tone?
Do they end their sentences in
an upward inflection or do they
end their sentences in a downward
inflection and then look for the shift?
Because if they're ending downward,
downward, downward, and they suddenly
end upward, they're either lying or
they're nervous or they're hiding
something, and you can tell that
because of the sudden shift in the tone.
If they're downward and suddenly.
Maybe we do this, you know, they
just don't know the answer, but
are pretending that they do.
You can read that room based
on the tonal fluctuations.
And what's really cool about this,
and then this brings you back
to stoicism, is you can do the
same thing with your own tone.
You can learn to modulate and control
to present power when you want with your
downward to present warmth, when you want,
with your volume, or with your cadence.
And to present.
Welcoming.
Welcome.
It's so nice to see you.
Yes.
Come on in.
You know when the other person's
nervous or you need to disarm them.
Right?
Or you need to make them
feel like they're in control.
Mm-hmm.
So reading other people's tone and then
being able to modulate your own tone.
Huge tip there.
Another one I like to give
audiences on the spot.
So.
Yeah, you need to listen.
You need to listen.
Here's the thing.
When I go into a negotiation room,
I take so much ego with me into that
room and I have something to prove, and
sometimes I need to be the person who's
dominating the conversation, and I need
to be the person who gets the last word.
This is all ridiculous.
None of it will serve
you in the negotiation.
Mm-hmm.
It's not a debate championship you.
With, yes.
Layci Nelson: You have to
make them feel a certain
Shermin Kruse: who they watching.
See how are responding this
tone, how are this body language,
how are to this language?
And if they're not responding
the way I want, change it.
Right?
Change your inflection, change your
strategy, change the way you're sitting.
Right.
Move differently and find what
works authentically for you.
I'll tell you, there are people right now,
some of them are running the world who
slam their fists on the table and swear
and yell and shout things and things get
done because that is a form of power.
Yep.
I could never do that.
A, I couldn't get away with it.
People would be like, what is.
Layci Nelson: For that behavior.
Shermin Kruse: Some of us don't
come into the room with the same
power dynamics, and so we come
into the room with a powerlessness
that we have to recover from.
Yeah.
As opposed to a powerfulness that
allows us to be more temperate.
Right.
Layci Nelson: But also, some of
us don't wanna live that way.
Right.
Even if I could get away with it.
Why would I choose it?
' Shermin Kruse: cause remember
your negotiations, vast majority
of them, they're in the context
of long-term relationships.
Yes.
Even business ones.
Yeah.
Your clients, your vendors,
your partners, your employees.
Layci Nelson: Hopefully, if
we're doing business right,
they're long-term relationships.
They're, every
Shermin Kruse: once in a while
you have that one-off and you can
actually take a greater risk, right?
Mm-hmm.
But most of them don't take that form.
So.
Shapes the level of trust with
which you enter the next one.
And so long term you see the
consequences of behaving in a way that
is not authentic or true to your own.
I'm not telling you what your
value system should be, but is true
to your own value system, right?
That active listening, that
viewing, and that watching,
and that awareness of others.
And then remember again,
turn that inwards.
Listen to yourself.
In what is it that is getting
in the way of my composure and
calm and ability to cognitively
analyze this situation right now?
Is it fear?
Is it anxiety?
Is it anger?
These can be great emotions.
Fear is why you run away
from the saber tooth tiger.
Layci Nelson: Right, right.
Thank you ancestors for keeping me alive.
Shermin Kruse: Prepare for
meetings for the very pitch itself.
Yes.
Yes.
So the reality is these
emotions can serve you.
The trick is to stop and
identify, are they serving me?
Mm-hmm.
Are they not serving me?
Mm-hmm.
And if they're not serving me, how do
I manipulate, control, twist, distract
away from them so that I can focus
more on excitement versus anxiety,
and very similar emotions by the way.
Yeah, neurochemically as well.
Very similar emotions, and so it's
a very easy conversion that you can
engage in right before you go in.
Your hands can be shaking from
excitement instead of anxiety,
even if that's just your self talk.
I'm excited.
I'm excited.
Excited.
I'm excited.
Honestly, though, it helps.
It helps.
It makes a big difference with
the way you approach the room.
And even then your language gets
affected and your tone gets affected.
Mm-hmm.
Instead of an anxious tone, you
take on a more excited tone.
Oh yeah.
Or if you really wanna in deep, powerful
and strong and downward inflection.
Mm-hmm.
Then you do some breathing exercises.
Or you tense your muscles up
and then relax them again.
Mm-hmm.
Or you do something that morning
that gets rid of a massive amount
of adrenaline, whatever it might be.
Go for a run punch, a punching bag.
I love punching things, heavy
Layci Nelson: lifting.
That is
Shermin Kruse: my
Layci Nelson: go-to
Shermin Kruse: go to the heavy lifting.
Yeah, heavy lifting is great.
I mean, I think that's
really, really great.
Personally, I like.
I think it's very cathartic to just go
and lift something super heavy because
yeah, first of all, it's distracting.
It's a form of cognitive distraction.
Realignment.
Also, it's empowering.
Mm-hmm.
Because you're able to lift it.
Mm-hmm.
But secondly, all of your
energy goes into this thing.
When you experience that your high
adrenaline levels are satisfied a
little bit more than they were, right?
So it's easier to calm down your
nervous system than it would've
been mm-hmm a minute ago.
Amazing.
Layci Nelson: Charmine, I feel like
you just gave us a masterclass.
I now feel armed with some
secret, not so secret weapons.
I am so eager to devour your book.
Thank you.
I'm guessing that you did not
get to this point in life.
And this level of wisdom,
insight without some bumps along
the way in your own journey.
And I now am opening the door for you,
inviting you into the confessional
to share with us your story, where
you just bucked it up, when it came
to leadership, and how has that
shaped the way that you lead today.
The floor is yours.
Shermin Kruse: I
Layci Nelson: appreciate
Shermin Kruse: it.
I do enjoy the floor.
Is there a stage and a spotlight as well?
Because every day I
Layci Nelson: live life
Shermin Kruse: that
the story, it's moment
of deep shame in my life.
And you know, I think a lot of us
have these stories and it's really
hard to share deeply shameful stories.
Layci Nelson: Yeah.
Shermin Kruse: The reason I've been
able to share it recently with a
little bit more comfort and expressing
the vulnerability is that it did
happen when I was very, very young.
I was a mere child, but the
incident burned into my memory
and I will never, ever forget it.
And what happened is I was in the
classroom, it was back in Iran.
This is a context in which
people are chanting Death to
America, death to Israel, death
to this, death to that, right?
Yeah.
And then you go back home and
everyone's trying to go to America.
I mean, it really is a very
strange and weird, and Alice
in Wonderland world to be in.
But I knew what the truth was.
I knew even though I was a child, I knew.
Mm-hmm.
My parents taught me what, and one
of the things you have to cover
up, you have to cover your hair.
And my family, we're not even Muslim.
So this for us is nothing more
than compliance with a law.
And for those who are
Muslim, it's still a choice.
Right?
What guard you wear on what part of
your body, it should be your choice.
And if you choose greater
modesty, God bless you, man.
Go for it.
And if you choose not to
also, God bless you, man.
Go for it.
Right, right.
Unfortunately, that's not the way
it works in the Islamic Republic.
And so one of the things the girls have to
do when they go to school is they have to
wear a headscarf when they go to school.
Sometimes it's really hot, it's
stifling, there's no air conditioning.
You know, we're in the middle of a war.
It's an all girls school.
So you're in the classroom and the
teacher says, okay, it's okay to take
your scarfs off because you're all girls.
Mm-hmm.
So you all take your, ah, that's so nice.
I'm breathing a little bit.
Right.
And one time this happened and
I was in the middle of a class.
I was a leader among a
group of kids in that class.
Mm-hmm.
And suddenly we saw someone outside
who was maybe a groundskeeper
or a gardener of some kind.
And one of the girls pointed at said,
man, and all of us, including me, hid
under our tables, grabbed our headscarves,
like as if we were so deeply ashamed.
It was almost like a funny belonging
joke, and I fully conformed, I
remember this moment so clearly because
it's burned into my consciousness.
I conformed, I really got
into the theatrics of it.
You know, we've all done this in a work
setting many times where we Oh, yeah.
Conform, and we get into
the theatrics of it.
And then afterwards I thought, what
could I have done differently, right?
Mm-hmm.
And I'm not saying stand up tall and
proud and you know, get myself killed, but
myself.
At a minimum, I could have moved
slower or I could have acted
hesitantly or said, I suppose we
need to, these are at a minimum.
I'm not saying you need to be
a revolutionary at every chance
you get, although, you know,
my people are revolutionary, so
I mean, that's my people, but
that's not even what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is I'm deeply
ashamed of that moment of conformity.
Mm-hmm.
Because it was a complete betrayal
of what I knew to be true.
I acted like it among my peers.
And it's, you know, no harm, no foul.
You know, nobody died.
Nobody got bullied, but it never left me.
Right.
Then when I enter the corporate
world and they tell me you can't wear
ethnic earrings, and for the first
two years, this was 25 years ago,
it's not really like that anymore.
Mm-hmm.
For the first three years
I wore pearl earrings.
Mm-hmm.
And at point I was like, no,
I'm gonna wear, I'm gonna be
appropriate for federal courts.
Because that's how I need
to show up in this space.
Yes.
And that kind of finding yourself
in that process, in that system,
and finally getting to a place where
at least 80% of the time, 85% of
the time, you're getting it right.
Yeah.
Instead of you're barely staying
above water, you're barely
able to catch your breath.
Right.
Which in a lot of ways was the
beginning of my corporate life
as well as my childhood in Iran.
For me, that's really the biggest story.
And again, this is something
I unpack in therapy.
Why is it still traumatizing me?
Layci Nelson: Yeah, yeah.
Like why is it still hanging on?
Yes,
Shermin Kruse: it's hanging on.
Mm-hmm.
Because this is an example of a thing
that happened in life at that time.
Mm-hmm.
It was a lack of being able to
acknowledge with openness, who
we, the courage that it takes to
corporate setting.
Courage.
It still takes, it's different, obviously.
It's not mess up.
Doesn't
Such a huge component of my own struggle.
You know how it's with childhood, you
only remember like 20 memories, right?
Else gets very deep inside and turns
into a knot in the pit of your stomach.
It's just something that really,
really stands out for me.
Yeah, and as I've gotten older and
more seasoned and more deliberate and
more intentional and more aware, and
more in control, I've learned more and
more how to align my values with who
I am in that moment and not conform.
My gosh,
Layci Nelson: resonating so deeply.
Thank you for that vulnerability and
sharing that amazing story realization
and that you came back to it and
decided to figure it out is empowering.
For those of us that have memories,
we'd rather not, and we're like, what?
Let's, let's dig in, figure it out.
So thank you for that.
Share.
Very powerful.
The abandonment of self can definitely
produce a whole lot of shame.
Figuring out who we are and then how
to stay in alignment and stay true to
the degree that we are in a position
where we can still make impact.
We're not so far outside of
the norm that we're gonna be
dismissed, still contributing
Shermin Kruse: member of society
and be able to succeed within
an organizational setting.
But go home at the end of the
day, feeling like you didn't cheat
yourself outta yourself that day.
Layci Nelson: Beautifully said.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Shermin Kruse: Yeah, thank you.
Layci Nelson: Oh, what
a powerful conversation.
I feel like we just got started and I
could talk to you for the entire day.
Me too.
However, I know we both
have a lot of other things.
Well, we have a lot of drinking to do.
We have a lot of drinking to do, a lot.
We have a lot of drinking to get done.
Day drinking is about to commence.
Take that as you'll listeners.
So getting our, our our day drinking done
before we head off to our other endeavors.
What is one thing that you would
like to leave our listeners with?
This has been such a
powerful conversation.
The listeners, if they were to take home
something that nugget to pluck out and
apply, what would you like them to take?
Shermin Kruse: I would just say be careful
of Instagram, memeing, actual wisdom.
Ooh.
Yeah.
You can't manifest way outta a
concentration camp if you're a J in.
The reality is that your thoughts
don't become real because
you hold them for 60 seconds.
External power dynamics are real.
Yes.
Systemic inequalities are real.
They influence.
Yes.
And you're real.
You can't decide to Victor
Frankl that experience and Right.
Decide that there's meaning even in
that existence, even in that moment.
Mm-hmm.
Power.
The more you.
Influence starts expand beyond yourself.
It's an extraordinary thing, and
sometimes you've lived in a tent or
a village your whole life, and it can
only expand to your immediate family,
or it can only expand to your clan,
or it can only expand to your village.
Other times it can expand globally.
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes you just need
to expand to your kids.
Mm-hmm.
To your spouse to.
That is up to you, and you must take
responsibility for that at some point.
You cannot look around
and blame the situation.
It's now your responsibility and
you do what you can with the cards
that you've been dealt, rather than
either pretending you haven't been
dealt cards or crying over the cards.
Layci Nelson: Yeah.
Wow.
Shami.
I gotta cancel my day drinking now
and go out and conquer the world.
I haven't day drank in 20 years.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't even remember the
last time, but thank you.
I wish I could day.
I mean, that would be phenomenal.
That would be amazing.
Right?
We just have to like sign off from all
responsibilities for a good week, I.
The wisdom in such a small window.
Wow.
Thank you.
We'll drop all of your links
that you share with us below.
Definitely want everyone to get
their hands on stoic empathy.
I also want to know if they're like,
I need more of this woman in my life.
Where do they follow you?
Where do they find you?
What's the best place to connect?
Shermin Kruse: Besides buying
the book, I'm on social media.
I'm on Instagram, LinkedIn,
and I'm sorry to say, but I'm
old, so I'm also on Facebook.
Me too.
Yeah.
Okay.
A lot of common you.
I, yeah, we do actually.
So you can certainly
follow me on social media.
I'm trying to create a YouTube channel
and get a newsletter together as well.
Hopefully those will be
fully launched by next month.
And Oke empathy, you
can buy from anywhere.
Barnes and Noble, target your
local bookstore If you wanna click
a button and Jeff Bezos brings it
to your house, man, God bless you.
Do you do what you need to do?
Click the button.
Alright,
Layci Nelson: thank you so much again.
Just phenomenal fed my soul today.
This is gonna stay with me, so thank you.
Thank you.
The pleasure was mine.
Well, listeners.
You know the drill.
Until next time, go manage like a leader.
Thanks for listening to
Confessions of a Terrible Leader.
If you're feeling brave and have your
own terrible leader story that you'd
like to share, head over to Transcend
leadership collective.com/podcast
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Confessions of a Terrible Leader is
hosted by Lacey Nelson and produced and
edited by Fixation Point Productions.
Music is by Leaf Olson and
Mary Scab from the band.
The number of months.
Confessions of a Terrible Leader is
a free leadership resource offered
by Transcend Leadership Collective.
If you are ready to refuse the
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