Mapping Organizational DNA, feat. David Cohen of DS Cohen & Associates

Welcome to Confessions of a Terrible
Leader, where real leaders share the

raw truth about the lessons they learned
the hard way so you don't have to.

Join our host, Laci Nelson, founder
of Transcend Leadership Collective

and former terrible leader.

On this podcast, we invite you to
step into the confessional and get

real with the messy stories and behind
the scenes reality of leadership.

Let's get to it.

Layci Nelson: Hello, listeners,
and welcome back to Confessions

of a Terrible Leader.

I'm your host and former
terrible leader, Lacey Nelson.

Today, I am so pleased to
welcome David Cohen to the show.

David, thank you for
making time for us today.

My

David Cohen: pleasure to be here.

Thank you for inviting me.

Layci Nelson: I need to just tell our
audience a little bit, our listeners,

you are in for a treat today.

This man has decades of experience.

And he has his doctorate in organizational
behavior from Boston University, as well

as some graduate studies at Harvard.

And he is an expert at
understanding how to map the DNA

and understand what's really going
on culturally in an organization.

And he even has a new book coming out.

We will drop all the links at the
end of the show so people can make

sure they get their hands on it.

Selecting the best, fostering a workforce
driven by values for lasting success.

David, that is a lot.

You have a lot going on.

And this is not your first book.

David Cohen: No, this is the third.

And now that it's in the final stages
of being printed, my wife then asked

me, so when are you starting the fourth?

Layci Nelson: Oh my gosh.

I

David Cohen: said, I don't think I am.

And she said, Oh, yes, you are.

Layci Nelson: So there will be a fourth

David Cohen: book.

It keeps you busy and motivated.

Layci Nelson: Awesome.

David, reading through your
experience is just fascinating to me.

You've been not only working
with organizations, corporations,

understanding the American way of
doing business, but I also see you

have been on five different continents.

So definitely experienced
even the multicultural, cross

cultural aspects of leadership.

I have so many questions.

I probably have more questions
than we have time, but you

are a wealth of knowledge.

I would love to know, just setting the
stage for our listeners and just out

of sheer curiosity, when you go in and
decide, okay, the right next step here is

I'm going to map the DNA of this culture
of what's going on in this corporation.

How do you begin?

What does your process look like?

David Cohen: Well, first I have to
gauge that the CEO and hopefully

members of the team are willing to
understand that once they have expressed

the DNA, it's not aspirational.

They have to live it.

Once you publish it, your employees
expect you're going to do it.

The good news is that 90 percent
of the time they already know that.

And they're already doing it to some
extent, but they're not always aligned.

The second thing I always say to CEOs, and
I learned that through experience is I say

to them, one on one, when we go through
this exercise with your leadership team,

we just might find there's an outlier
who's going to be holding you back and

you're going to have to deal with it.

And when the CEO gives lip service to
that, as has happened on an occasion.

And then the values are in place and
they don't deal with the outlier, the

organization becomes very cynical and
employees become very disheartened

because they really celebrate the values.

And so that's where I usually start
and then begin one on one with the

leadership series of questions I
have, the sort of secret sauce of.

Revealing where they're really at,
what they really think, and then once

that's codified, drafted actually, we
measure it against what people in the

organization at every level think.

Layci Nelson: What do you usually
find when you dig into that?

Do you see common patterns and gaps?

I'm assuming there's always gaps.

What are the things you find?

David Cohen: It's interesting.

I was doing one with a company
that was run out of Canada, a

major logistics company, and
they had an operation in Texas.

And there was this one gentleman who'd
been with the company 20 something

years, who was very quiet during the
entire focus group of Getting the

employee's perspective on the values.

And at the very end, I would share
what the executives say to show the

gap and where it's going to be bridged
or how it can be bridged, or there's a

disconnect and leadership is off base.

And I shared with them what it was.

And this gentleman who had not said
a word the entire time, smile and

said, I didn't think those guys at
head office actually understood it.

That's really encouraging.

I find that 95 percent of the time there's
alignment between what the employees are

thinking and doing and what leadership
thinks is the right way of behaving.

There's usually not a disconnect.

Layci Nelson: Okay.

David Cohen: I found one organization
that there was a disconnect and

they decided not to go ahead.

And the disconnect was on the leadership
team and there was a mistake made

and they decided they're not going
to roll out the values at that point

because they were not going to have
leadership leading by examples.

Layci Nelson: Okay.

So if you find that there isn't often a
big disconnect, what comes down to the

heart of the work or the change that
you're doing with the organizations?

Once you say, you know what, you
guys are pretty much in alignment.

What's the next step?

David Cohen: Well, the next step
is make sure that see values.

They're nice words.

But they mean nothing without
understanding the behaviors behind them.

And one way to explain it, cause
everybody thinks that, okay, if I

define this word, respect, let's
say, which is a common one, everybody

understands that you just have to say
the word respect and that's not true.

And so, you know, drawing on my global
experiences, the way I explain it

is this respect in Southeast Asia
is To say face with the leader.

In other words, there's a
deference to those in power.

There's a deference to older people.

And therefore, if your boss tells
you something, even if you disagree

with it, you're not going to
disagree with it in the meeting.

Definitely.

If at all.

Right.

So that's respect.

If I go to the Gulf region,
respect is different.

See, respect there, it's
a tribal background.

Respect there is I will socialize
an idea, which means it might take

me a month before I even start
working on it, but I'll socialize it.

So even if my boss has agreed on
it and it's got a green light, I'm

not going to work on it until those
that are impacted are on side with

it and I find a way to sell them on

Layci Nelson: it.

Hmm.

David Cohen: In Europe, if you disagree
with the boss, everybody kind of looks

at each other, figures out who has the
best relationship with the boss at that

time, takes them out for a beer after
work and tells them, you know, there's

a different way of looking at it.

Now, in the United States, there's
a different kind of respect when it

comes to, if the boss says something
you disagree with, you just raise

your hand, don't even raise your
hand, just in the middle of a meeting,

you shout out, that's really dumb.

And everybody kind of
says, I'm glad he said it.

They all agree on it and the
boss accepts it and they figure

out a better way of doing it.

Well, if you did that in Europe,
in the Gulf region, in Asia,

you'd probably get fired.

But if I acted as an Asian might in
North America and have this really great

idea, and I keep my mouth shut and later
on, they find out I had a better idea.

They're going to say,
what's wrong with you?

How come you didn't bring it up?

Well, I didn't want to
disagree with the boss.

Disagreeing with the boss is a good thing.

That's how we get innovation.

That's how we get differences of opinion.

So it's really the core of the work is.

Capturing the authentic
behaviors that define it.

Now, here's the interesting part
in the research I've done and other

people have done the second most
frequently used value among the

fortune 500 is the word integrity.

And then I said to people,
so what's integrity mean?

And they start to
finding the other values.

I worked with the chief of police in
Calgary, Christine Silverberg, many

years ago, and we were discussing this
and she came out with a brilliant idea.

She said the Calgary police service.

We'll have integrity when we live
our values without exception.

Integrity is the sum total
of living your values.

Integrity is about keeping a promise.

What do you promise?

I'm going to live my values.

Therefore, when you live your
values, you have integrity.

Now, not everybody agrees with that.

And I've had clients that
insist that integrity has.

be on the list.

So we work really hard to define
the behaviors that are uniquely

different from the other ones.

And it's really difficult.

Layci Nelson: Right.

David Cohen: So that's some
of the things that we do.

Layci Nelson: Yeah.

What fascinating, rich work.

In your work as a facilitator, as the
guide leading them through this process,

where does it start to get sticky?

Where does it feel like, okay, this is
hard, this is gonna be hard work, I'm

gonna have to help guide this group.

Is it just completely varied business to
business, or do you see certain patterns?

David Cohen: There's a lot of
different things seeming to happen.

One thing happened with a gentleman
in San Francisco that had two

PhDs in advanced quantum physics.

And when we told him what we're
going to do and how we're going

to do it, he thought it was really
kind of airy fairy and ridiculous.

Layci Nelson: Yep.

David Cohen: And then after I do the
interviews, I take the executive off site.

Two days, sometimes two and
a half after the first day,

he said, Oh, I really see it.

It's really does make a difference.

And it's different than
the previous exercises like

this that he's been through.

So sometimes you get resistance
that, you know, I can state it.

I'm a leader.

So everybody follow without getting any
buy in or getting any reality check.

Does it really.

Work in the real world.

Yeah.

That's one obstacle you find.

And the other obstacle sometimes you run
into is that people think that a change

in strategy is a change in culture.

Layci Nelson: Mm.

Talk more about that.

David Cohen: So what's
a change in strategy?

There's this one bank in Australia that
a CHRO that went on lives on YouTube

and said, we're changing our strategy.

We're becoming more people focused.

We're going to become more agile.

What it meant is we're
going to get computers.

We're going to get laptops.

We're going to get tablets.

We're going to be able
to respond in the moment.

And it's all about this technology switch.

And then I look on the website
and the values have been the

same for over a hundred years.

So the behaviors are the same just
because you're using technology.

It doesn't change the behavior
that's in your value set.

So the culture wasn't changing.

The strategy was changing.

It's like when organizations say
we want to be more innovative.

Layci Nelson: Yeah.

David Cohen: And my best example happened.

Many years ago with one of the lottery
corporations in one of the provinces,

I got a phone call and they said,
we need you to come out here right

away and work with us on our culture.

And I said, well, what
do you mean right away?

They said like tomorrow.

Why?

Well, they had a government report that
said that they were losing business to the

borderline state because they had casinos,
younger people do casinos, not scratch

and win and that they were falling behind.

They weren't making enough money for
the government, et cetera, et cetera.

And I said, so what are your values now?

They said honesty, trust, and I
interrupted them and said, so you're

telling me that you're looking for new
values, so you're not going to have

trust or honesty anymore because you've
got to change your values, your culture.

No, no, no, we want to keep those.

So I said, what do you want?

Well, we have to be more innovative.

So I said, well, innovation means what?

But are you going to be respectful
or trusting in the innovation?

So what we needed to focus
on was not the values.

We had to celebrate the values so people
can know it's a safe environment to work.

The rules of the game weren't changing,
but the behaviors for the role, what

they were focusing on, the objectives
they were focusing on, those changed.

Therefore, some of the skill and knowledge
and some of the other things had to

change in order to bring that out.

And they did.

Many years ago, they became the
first province in Ontario to

successfully introduce online gambling.

Layci Nelson: Wow.

David Cohen: They did very
well when they're doing

Layci Nelson: that.

David Cohen: I always find it difficult
when I see consultants come in and say,

we're going to change your culture.

Knowing that whether it's from
research at Harvard or MIT or

anywhere else, 85 percent of culture
changes fail within 18 months.

And they say, we're going to change
your culture and everybody gets excited,

we're going to change our culture.

And I'm scratching my head because
they're not changing their culture

because they're not changing their values.

Right.

Think about your values and
how they evolved in you.

If somebody in the morning when
you wake up said, Oh, by the way,

today is change your values day.

And whatever you believed in before you
got to abandon and believe something new.

How likely are you to do that?

Layci Nelson: Not likely.

David Cohen: Values don't change.

Culture is rooted in values.

That's the cornerstone.

Layci Nelson: Yeah.

And

David Cohen: they say to
change a corporate value.

Just one value can take seven
years and millions of dollars.

Layci Nelson: So how do I, as a business
owner, I'm running an organization and

I know there's something that needs.

There's some rot somewhere.

I can't figure it out exactly, I
can't put my finger on it, but I

know we have a, what's typically
in the lexicon used accurately or

not, we have a culture problem.

What is a good diagnostic?

How can I start to really dig in and go,
well, do I have a culture problem or do

I have a strategy problem or how do I
start to determine what the right course

of action is to get us into alignment?

David Cohen: Okay.

So there's two possibilities.

Okay.

One is your people really believe
in the values of the culture.

It's been successful.

It's been positively reinforced.

And because of various pressures
or whatever you're making, our

leadership's making decisions, which
no longer align with the values and

the purpose of the organization to
be expedient, to make short term

money and people are now confused.

That's why I often call the work I
do a back to the future exercise.

What got you there once
will get you there again.

You got to find out, are you in
the leadership role, the ones

who are violating the values
and have people confused?

On the other hand, have
you made a business change?

Have you come under pressure because
of Competition from China or somewhere

in the world, or you no longer
have the lead product in the world.

And therefore you have to change and
change rapidly direction, which means

what you were doing is no longer
going to work for you, but make sure

you do it according to the values.

And so now you've introduced this,
but you haven't introduced it so

people feel safe or comfortable
that they're part of the solution.

How do you know that?

Well, the easiest way is
to talk to your employees.

Right.

Ask.

I don't.

Surprise.

People say, how come you're so
successful in talking with employees?

I said, well, all I do is
talk to the front line.

Layci Nelson: Yeah.

David Cohen: They tell me the truth.

And then I reflect that back over the
different levels of the organization.

And usually there's a roadblock
somewhere and you got to be able

to deal with that roadblock.

And somebody somewhere in the
organization doesn't like what's going on.

And they're not filtering the information
down, communicating it clearly.

So some people see some people acting
one way or focused on a project

or an objective that doesn't align
with theirs and they're confused.

The pyramid that I look at is
this values define who you are.

That's your ethics.

That's your code of conduct.

The next level down in that pyramid
then would be what is our purpose?

Layci Nelson: What

David Cohen: is our vision?

In other words, not what we
are today, but what we will be.

And it's got to be emotional
to your employees, right?

The next is the strategic plan.

And this is where I think
companies make a mistake.

They often will set the strategic
plan and say, okay, what values can we

change to align with the strategic plan?

Oh, we have a new purpose now, right?

No, no.

You measure the success
of the strategic plan.

Will it move you towards your vision, your
purpose, and will it maintain the values?

If not, change the strategic plan, don't
change your values and vision and purpose.

Layci Nelson: Right.

Or start a new company because
this is not the same thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

David Cohen: You know, spin something off.

Layci Nelson: Yep.

David Cohen: And then if that's
all in line, each division can take

that piece of the pie that's theirs.

So next level down is each.

Individual.

Now that creates a line of sight.

I know that my objectives mean
the team success, the division

success, the organization success.

I know we're moving towards
something that's meaningful.

And I know that if I am in a situation
where there's no rule book or there's

no previous way of dealing with it, as
long as I live the values, I'll be safe.

And so I have a line of sight.

Now here's why this works.

Every human being wants to contribute
to something bigger than themselves.

Layci Nelson: Yep.

David Cohen: And people
kind of roll their eyes.

And I say, so are you a member of an
organization, a church, a synagogue?

Are you a member of
something in the community?

A sports team?

Layci Nelson: Yep.

David Cohen: Why do you do that?

Well, it's meaningful.

That makes me excited.

You give your discretionary money
to that organization, but they'll

give discretionary effort to the
organization if they feel that they're

being acknowledged for behaving
correctly and contributing to something

that's beyond their own workspace.

I find these reward systems where, you
know, I thank you for doing your job,

which is kind of ludicrous because, you
know, the employee of the month probably

should be the same person every month.

Layci Nelson: Mm hmm.

All

David Cohen: right.

But then you got to switch it around.

So it becomes meaningless.

Layci Nelson: It doesn't mean anything.

Right.

David Cohen: Right.

The fact is, you get a reward
or recognition when you go above

and beyond, not your job in your
cubby, but you've contributed to

something bigger in the organization.

Layci Nelson: Yes.

You're building bridges, your other
departments are your customers.

Yes.

David Cohen: The best example of that,
that somebody really understood a lot

of site is the story that is associated
with president John Kennedy when he was

at the Nassau space center in Houston
and he would have a habit talk to

the front line and he went up to one
gentleman who happened to be the cleaner

and said, what are you doing here?

And he said, I'm putting
a man on the moon.

Layci Nelson: Yes.

David Cohen: Imagine every one of
your employees was able to say,

I'm contributing to your vision.

Layci Nelson: That's powerful.

David Cohen: Yeah.

Layci Nelson: Such a great example.

I've seen that with

David Cohen: organizations.

The old Connaught Labs, which is now
part of Sanofi, pharmaceutical in France,

when it was Sanofi Pasteur, Connaught
Labs, their vision was to make the world

safer for children through vaccines.

Who the hell wouldn't want to work there?

Layci Nelson: Right.

David Cohen: When I was working with
a janitorial group, and we were doing

something on their behaviors for their
job, and one gentleman came to the

and he kind of started apologizing.

And I would just sit in and jump in.

One of the other guys later on
in the focus group said we are

the most important people here.

Now this is the same organization
that solved the polio vaccine

problem when it first came out, Dr.

Banting.

These are Nobel Prize winners in this
organization, but these guys without

a college, university education.

Praise them and said, we're
the most important people here.

And I said to him, why?

Because if we don't clean the floor
fast enough and somebody falls and

has a concussion, we can slow down
the cure for some childhood disease.

We got to do our job and do it right.

Layci Nelson: Yeah.

David Cohen: And they meant it.

Layci Nelson: Such a great example.

David Cohen: That's when you really have
an organization that everybody aligns

because they understand the purpose is
meaningful and the values are clear.

One of the values is because it
was a very caring organization

that was focused on education and
learning, learning and growth.

And there was a new leader came to
the organization and speaking with

me and says, what's going on here?

He said, there's cannot time.

I said, what's cannot time?

He says, everybody leaves here at 4 30.

I said, it's a university.

It comes from the university of Toronto.

That's it's DNA.

If you have nothing to do, you go home.

Wait till you see the first day of
public school, the parking lot's going

to be empty because every one of them is
bringing their kids to school and they

won't be here until nine 30, 10 o'clock.

He calls me up that day and says, yeah,
they didn't show up till 10, 1030.

Layci Nelson: You have
so many powerful stories.

I'm going to ask you now to share
a story about your own journey and

yourself in your leadership experience
and growth as a leader, as understanding

who you are and how you move through
this world and influence people.

Every guest we invite on the show, we
welcome you to step into the confessional

and share your own experience of
making a mistake, one of your biggest

that you're willing to talk about, a
mistake, a misstep, whatever you want

to label it, a learning opportunity in
your own journey and how that shaped

you as the leader you are today.

David Cohen: Oh, it's interesting.

I was in education before
I started this journey.

And passionate about education and because
of my own life's journey and history

of struggling to learn how to read.

I mean, I didn't read on grade
level until I was in grade eight.

I have amblyopia, which
was called lazy eye.

Back then in the dark ages,
they didn't know how to fix it.

I had to wear a patch for two years
in grade seven and grade eight.

And that's traumatic.

Layci Nelson: That's a rough
time to have to wear a patch.

David Cohen: person to have to
wear a patch and be different.

Layci Nelson: Yep.

David Cohen: I loved learning,
but it was really hard.

Layci Nelson: Yeah.

David Cohen: And so I became
really passionate about it.

The other thing that happens is
I would always stand up for what

I thought was right, loudly.

And so I did things aggressively, loudly,
assertively, in helping kids, the focus,

of course, of the school is to help kids.

A lot of parents, they don't like it
because I tell them the truth about their

kids and what they had to do to help them.

And they always thought their kid
was a genius or special or whatever.

And I would say, you know,
they are of course, but they're

not going to be successful.

They're going to be
frustrated, whatever it is.

Then I would leave the
school soon thereafter.

It didn't help at all when I told the
chairman of the board his kid needed help.

Layci Nelson: Yeah.

David Cohen: I realized later on, it
took me a long time, but I realized

later on that my learning struggle
was exasperated by having an outburst

disorder associated with ADHD.

And once I became aware of that, I was
able to channel my passion about what I

think is right, and instead of becoming,
you know, standing on a soapbox and

saying I was right and not listening to
people, because sometimes I didn't listen.

Sometimes I knew a teacher could
do a better job and I'd get on

their case a little too hard.

Layci Nelson: Mm hmm.

David Cohen: Now I learned how to
moderate that and find different

ways of saying it and until they
think it's their idea and then I

say, gee, what a great idea you have.

Go ahead and do it.

Layci Nelson: Wonderful.

Yes.

What a skill to develop.

David Cohen: It's about instead of
having answers, having questions,

but have questions that lead them to
the answer you want in some cases.

Layci Nelson: Yes.

David Cohen: Yeah.

Layci Nelson: Learning how to ask
great questions is definitely a learned

skill worth putting the time in for.

Yeah.

What a great example and thank
you for being willing to share

something so vulnerable about your
own journey and your own story.

I think what really resonates
for me is the degree of self

awareness that was required to
get to that point of recognizing.

This maybe isn't serving me as well
or the people I want it to serve

well, and then being willing to
dig in and figure out what's going

on and how do I do it differently.

Did you have to learn that or
was it pain or was it internal?

How did you get to that point?

My

David Cohen: wife.

Ah,

Layci Nelson: good old women.

You

David Cohen: have to have a
partner in life that cares.

Layci Nelson: Yes.

David Cohen: And she would question
it, would support me at the

different schools where we're at.

When we moved to Canada 40 years ago, and
after I left the school, I was out here.

My kids weren't going to leave here.

They were young.

They were 10 and 12 at the
time that I left the school.

And they loved it here.

We had moved a lot, so they
were sick and tired of moving.

And I decided to go into consulting
and as I worked through that in

consulting, I realized my wife was right.

There were different ways
of approaching things.

And I had to accept that I
was right in what I was doing.

I just wasn't right in the way I
was getting the message across.

Uh, yes.

So how to change that?

You know, I always knew as an
educator about ADHD, but there

used to be this myth that it used
to be outgrown in adolescence.

It's not, there's such
a thing as adult ADHD.

I think it's gone to a ridiculous
point where now there's four

different types of ADHD.

Layci Nelson: Right, right.

It got TikTokified.

Yeah.

David Cohen: I mean, give me a break.

My version of it's complicated
by outburst disorder.

That was getting me in trouble.

So when I got into that
and got into therapy for

Layci Nelson: it and

David Cohen: take my pills, because
if I don't take my pills, it's

going to be an interesting day.

Layci Nelson: Oh my goodness.

What a fantastic story and gives so much
more depth to why you're so effective

and powerful with the work that you do.

So so much for sharing that with us.

Clearly, you're a man of deep
wisdom, experience, insights.

Knowing now that you had a
background in education, you're

an excellent communicator.

I can see where that comes from.

So thank you for taking time out of
your day to share with our listeners.

I was taking notes for myself
during your discussion.

So much good insight.

Where can people find you, David,
if they want to follow up and

get more and order that book?

David Cohen: I am on LinkedIn,
so you can find me on LinkedIn.

Layci Nelson: Okay.

David Cohen: That's why I use my
middle initial S, because there's

thousands of David Cohns in this world.

Layci Nelson: Yep.

David Cohen: David S in
Toronto, so that pops up.

Layci Nelson: Hey,

David Cohen: you can at www s a g l t d.

com is the website.

Layci Nelson: We'll drop
that in the notes, everybody.

So you don't have to write it down.

We'll have it there.

David Cohen: And the book
link will be out by publisher

said by the end of this month.

Layci Nelson: Okay.

David Cohen: But it will be on my website.

I'll send it to you.

You can have it.

So thank you.

Layci Nelson: Perfect for that.

Excellent.

We will make sure we
get all of those links.

Thank you again.

It's just been wonderful.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, this was fun.

This was a good conversation.

All right, listeners, you know the drill.

Until next time, go manage.

Thanks

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