S3, Ep. 7: Q&A- Visionary Leadership: Turning Ideas into Action

Layci (00:01.018)
Hello listeners and welcome back to Confessions of a Terrible Leader. I'm your host and let's not forget former terrible leader Lacey Nelson. And today we have Mary back in the studio or I should say Mary has herself back in the studio. We know I don't run the studio. Hi Mary.

Mary Skop (00:19.313)
Hello, Lacey. It is so good to be back. I am really fired up to put you through another round of Q &A and listeners. just want to say this time, Lacey and I decided to just go fully blind into this. No prep work, no, you know, pre -previews or anything. She does not know what I'm going to ask her. So this is going to be a little extra spicy and exciting. Lacey.

Layci (00:45.327)
Yes.

Mary Skop (00:46.51)
Do you have any questions before I dive

Layci (00:48.912)
I feel as ready as I can be. This will probably be a good insight into like what a coaching session is somewhat like, because I don't always know what's gonna come. I rarely actually know what's gonna come to the table. So this is like, if people get one -to -one, this is a lot might, I'm assuming, guessing, is gonna reflect that dynamic quite a bit. So I'm excited to see what, I really have no idea where this is going. So I'm just here for the ride today and I'm actually really happy about

Mary Skop (00:51.403)
Yeah

Mary Skop (01:02.188)
Yes.

Mary Skop (01:17.903)
Yeah, no, I think it's a good place to be. So I'm gonna start with what to you, what does it mean to be a visionary?

Layci (01:18.351)
Ha ha

Layci (01:32.74)
I love this question. What does it mean to be a visionary? A visionary is the person who has a skill, has a gift really, to be able to stand at the bottom of the mountain and envision in beautiful detail what it looks like at the top of the mountain.

and not only be able to have that in their head, but to be able to describe it to others in a way that makes them want to hike that mountain with you. And they're all in and they wanna get to the top two, even if they can't see it like you can. So it's your ability to express, this is where we're going. This is what this is about.

you know, to use our mountain analogy, it's to be able to say, we're gonna, it's gonna be hard work and it's gonna be worth it. Because when we get to the top of this mountain, you're gonna see vistas you have never seen before. You're gonna see colors in the sunset you did not know existed. There's trees that grow up there. There's wildlife and flora at this elevation.

that this is the only time you're gonna get to see it, is if you make this journey, and I could not think of the better people to have by my side than you to get up there and experience it with. That's what a vision, that is what it means to be a visionary. And you really have to be able to describe it, to see it, to describe it, and...

Mary Skop (03:11.062)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (03:22.681)
in turn get people excited about going with

Mary Skop (03:25.69)
Mm Yeah, I really love that definition. It's not something like you can look up the definition of what is a visionary, you know, and you can see, you know, with Forbes, you know, whatever all sorts of like, you know, business models and and look up what their definition is of a visionary. But I really love, of course, the mountain is something that is a big part of like our visuals and, you know, are a lot of the concepts that we we build ideas upon at Transcend Leadership Collective.

Layci (03:47.876)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (03:55.158)
So I love that analogy there. So going further into that, a lot of leaders might consider themselves a true visionary.

Layci (04:03.14)
Mmm.

Mary Skop (04:14.956)
So I want to paint a picture for you. Let's say that you've been hired to conduct a workshop and the leader, manager, boss, like however, you know, whatever their title like falls under, they hire you to come in and do the workshop with their team. So you're there, you show up, you're prepared. It becomes really apparent to you very quickly that this person is, considers themselves to be a visionary in name only as in.

Layci (04:21.232)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (04:41.978)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (04:44.086)
all these ideas, zero execution, but the self -awareness is not there. The team is frustrated. How do you handle this? And let's be clear that this cannot be fixed in a singular workshop. Yes. Yeah. So what you've described to me, your definition, that sounds to me like this is the definition of a good and effective visionary.

Layci (05:01.178)
Thank you. Correct.

Mary Skop (05:12.78)
What happens when you encounter something that's visionary really only in name, but the execution and the quality is not there and you have a frustrated

Layci (05:22.882)
Okay, so this happens a lot. And I would say why it happens is because people oftentimes the entrepreneurial minded person is really good at casting the vision. And here's where being a visionary can be a double edged sword. But the coaching part that requires the skill part that requires bringing people along with you, as you stated so clearly and the execution isn't there.

They're really two different skill sets. So you can be a visionary and be able to communicate this beautiful idea, but it actually becomes damaging to morale if all you do is communicate the idea and you don't provide actual execution or a pathway to get there. Because eventually they're just like, why are we still talking? All we do is talk. I'm tired of talking about all these ideas. Nothing ever comes of it anyway.

Mary Skop (05:54.696)
Mmm.

Layci (06:19.372)
I'm not gonna give my emotional bandwidth to this anymore. So part of how do we help the visionary see this, we really dig in and try to dissect what's going on. So there's a lot of things that could be happening. It could be what I just described, like there's this beautiful picture, but there's no pathway or it's not, it's all in their head and they haven't done a good job of communicating it, what the steps

Oftentimes symptoms of that is lack of strategic planning, lack of annual plan, lack of quarterly plans. Like there's major pieces that we can diagnostically go, you're not doing this. It doesn't have to be our vision mapping process. Although of course I'm a huge advocate of it, like there's, if there's not regular annual meetings and annual planning happening at the very least, that's

big indicator that there's lack of pathway happening. People don't know. So then it just feels like what we keep talking about this, but we don't even know what steps we're taking to get there. If there's a pathway, but it's not really being executed well, then I look to we start looking to the tactical things. Are they doing quarterly goal setting? Are they checking in on a consistent basis? Right? So what do we do? What does it look like? We go into diagnostic mode.

Mary Skop (07:18.734)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (07:45.922)
real quick and go, okay. And we're running, we're asking questions and that's like the rubric in our head that we're checking things against. The other thing that can be happening and sometimes what I just described and this will happen at the same time is because visionaries are typically entrepreneurs are really good with ideas and there's no short, there's no, they're not short on ideas.

Mary Skop (07:46.988)
Mm

Mary Skop (08:09.514)
Mm

Mary Skop (08:13.591)
Yeah.

Layci (08:15.056)
There can be what feels like constant moving of the goalposts or a new vision every 30 days. And that becomes really exhausting for a team. And what is challenging in that is that it's really energizing for the visionary. Like they thrive on throwing out the new ideas, throwing out the...

Mary Skop (08:20.651)
Hmm.

Mary Skop (08:36.206)
Yeah.

Layci (08:43.989)
the next big thing that they think might be coming. I'm guilty of this, so I can speak to this with personal experience. It's something I've had to work on in myself and create the appropriate basically guardrails and containers for me to put things in, to give my team permission to say, you said something else two months ago, what do you want me to prioritize right now?

Mary Skop (09:01.323)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (09:10.414)
Right, right.

Layci (09:12.43)
which I'm pretty sure you've said to me. So I think when you start to create part of the guardrails for us, Wiley constantly casting about vision people is making sure that we have these structures, this scaffolding that helps the rest of the team basically carry out what you, it gives them a way to find out what really is most important.

and it takes a ton of self -discipline and self -awareness. So you also asked, what do do when they're not self -aware enough to know? Great question. And that also happens. So part of what we do is we start every organization with a leadership health assessment. And it's just a real easy, simple, clickable, for open -ended questions. takes people about, it's clickable,

Mary Skop (09:45.314)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (09:50.487)
Right.

Layci (10:12.176)
multiple choice for the first part. And then last part's just a couple open -ended questions that we ask everyone on the, at least the leadership team. So whether they're formally recognized as such or not, but who are the key players in the organization? We ask all of them to fill it out and it's not anonymous. We let them know that too. Like we know who said what, but we're not going to turn around and show it to everybody. But what it does is it creates for us a gap in perception.

Mary Skop (10:26.37)
Mm

Layci (10:42.698)
And it highlights the gaps, right? Where you've got three people that think, we know exactly what the core values are. And then you have seven people that answer, we've never seen these core values in our life. So it's right away, it's asking questions about that. But then it's also asking questions about effectiveness of perceived effectiveness of meetings, perceived effectiveness of.

Mary Skop (10:45.314)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (10:59.537)
Right, right.

Layci (11:13.232)
the benchmarks that, know, do you have benchmarks? Like it's really getting to some of those things. And so just that very loose, like that is not the same as the 360 that we do for leaders that is super intense and multi -layered and like 40 page document at the end. This is really simple. It's a very brief diagnostic, but at the beginning it helps us begin to flag and see where there's inconsistencies. And it gives us the evidence.

Mary Skop (11:26.37)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (11:41.882)
that we need to gently bring leaders along and say, have no doubt your intentions are, you've shown me your intentions, because we have this conversation early on, like your heart is good, is your passion is there. I think these are some of the blocks per the data that is keeping your whole team from being able to come with you on this journey to the degree that you want them to. And so that is how.

we make sure that we're not just throwing spaghetti at the wall with our clients. And when we say that we customize, we have a whole bunch of ingredients, those around leadership and honest communication, healthy conflict, acceptance, respect and trust, right? Heart first. We have a whole bunch of ingredients and some of those ingredients are tools that we use. Some are workshops we teach, some

Mary Skop (12:14.412)
Right? Yes.

Layci (12:39.812)
different, you know, tons of different frameworks for thin frameworks that help people break things down and understand what's going on and understand each other and communicate better, blah, blah, We don't know always what, if we're going to be making a chocolate cake or if we're going to be making strawberry shortcake for an organization. We have, what are we going to pull from the cabinet? It's going to depend on

Mary Skop (13:00.95)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Layci (13:09.962)
you know, our ingredients in our pantry are solid, they're high quality, they're consistent, but we're not always going, nobody gets a templated experience. We customize based on information and we tweak and change things as we go as well with how is the group responding, what is happening. So that was a very long -winded answer to your question.

Mary Skop (13:17.654)
Right.

Mary Skop (13:30.702)
That was great. Yeah. No, I mean, that definitely, love the, just the really just walking through the process, our Transcend Leadership Collective's like specific process in how you tackle these really challenging situations. And I think it could be safe to say that one of the most challenging components of that is when the leader

lacks the self -awareness or perhaps even going a little bit farther, they simply don't see that that is like to be an effective visionary, good communicator, making sure the team has the grasp of the vision that they're just not like, well, here we go again. Like that is especially difficult if they think, well, I am not doing anything wrong.

Nobody else, everyone's just too slow.

Layci (14:29.072)
Mm -hmm.

Right, I will say in all fairness to the leaders who work with us, if that is their stance, they typically, like, we're not for them, right? Like, if they're not gonna be attracted to us, there's a lot of different models out there that can fluff their feathers in that way, if that's what they want to hear. They can find it. Right, right, we're not gonna be a good fit. I mean, typically into the discovery call, five minutes, and it's like,

Mary Skop (14:33.634)
That's so hard.

Mary Skop (14:42.176)
Sure, right.

Mary Skop (14:49.656)
Yeah, things are going to get uncomfortable real quick.

Layci (15:01.162)
probably isn't the best fit. But those leaders that really are desiring self -awareness, like if they're like, even if they're like, you know what, I think I'm about as self -aware as a rock. I mean, that's a level of self -awareness, really. Yes. And typically what research actually shows us is the leaders that think they're doing the

Mary Skop (15:03.415)
rights.

Mary Skop (15:09.755)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (15:18.54)
Right, that's starting point.

Layci (15:29.688)
are typically the ones that their teams have the lowest ratings for, for how well they actually are doing. So it's the ones that aren't even, know, they're gonna immediately go, I don't need that. You know, that's, I'm doing fine. Things are fine. It's not broken. Don't fix it. Your thank you is your paycheck. Like let's roll. Come on, I'm doing good enough. Let's just keep moving, head down.

Mary Skop (15:44.524)
Yeah, right.

Mary Skop (15:49.549)
Right.

Yeah.

Layci (15:56.842)
while I understand how people arrive at that mindset and I can have compassion for it if they want to change it, that is not who we attract, right? Like that is not the typical. What becomes challenging is when an organization brings us in and the top has decided they're all about what we offer. They're the ones who are paying the bill. But I've got them say we've got a second, third level

Mary Skop (16:24.514)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (16:25.398)
employees that we're working with and they have the attitude that I just described and they weren't part of the decision of bringing us in. That is where it gets hard and we have had it get very hard in some of those situations and we've learned a lot about how to more effectively navigate that and how to create what we need to do to get not just the buy

Mary Skop (16:37.035)
Sure. Yes, that is true.

Layci (16:54.266)
from the people that are, and you know, your HR always knows. HR or like whoever is helping to set up the workshops, if you ask very pointedly, who is gonna hate this the most? Like where are we gonna hit resistance in the management structure? And you need to ask those questions. Like listeners, if you are also doing this work, ask those questions when you're doing those beginning interviews

with your potential client or designing a workshop or delivery system or we go in and do whole leadership academies for organizations, you wanna start asking right from the top of the development, who are the people that are gonna have the hardest time with this? And when those are identified early and you can skillfully bring them into the co -creation process,

and start asking them what their thoughts are and incorporate what you can from the feedback that they give you, you will see 180 flips. I mean, is it foolproof? No. There's, can't, I'm not gonna lie. Like people, humans are humans. This isn't like, and every single time you're gonna get them on your side.

I wish it was every single time, but I will say it is most times that you can diplomatically finesse it and bring them into the fold. they, they, it's like change theory stuff. No one wants to feel like, like anything is just dropped through the floor onto their heads and they're just supposed to stand there and what? I didn't even know this was happening. Wait, what are you telling my department? Wait a minute. You know, there's just that immediate resistance.

Mary Skop (18:19.304)
Right. Yeah.

Layci (18:47.254)
if you do the drop through the floor methodology versus the co -creation. It doesn't take more time. Is it a little bit more cumbersome? Yes, but the results on the other side will be better for everybody.

Mary Skop (19:00.802)
Yeah, absolutely. And like you're like describing like what feels like buy -in, like really, like you can't to get effective buy -in, can't just, there's an email that just drops into everyone's inbox one morning. Like we're doing this mandatory training. Who hears the words mandatory training and thinks, yes. I mean, maybe if there's a free lunch involved, but that's where it stops.

Layci (19:21.294)
Right. Right, right. Yeah, they're like, awesome, the taco truck's coming today. I'll suffer for that. Yeah.

Mary Skop (19:28.204)
Right. Yeah, exactly. But, right. Yeah, exactly. But they know like, well, show up, have a taco, and just like move on with my day. But true buy -in is something that takes a long, it takes time. And you have to have trust. And you have to be able to effectively cast that vision for your team to be like, yeah, like we're all

Layci (19:36.568)
Yes, yes, yes.

Layci (19:43.546)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (19:53.242)
Yep.

Mary Skop (19:54.934)
we're going to participate fully because we see the value in this.

Layci (19:58.5)
and know how to handle your negative Nellies, right? Because they also bring, it's gonna happen. You're gonna get the doubters. And I will say, in all fairness, there's a lot of really bad training out there. So there is a lot of experiences that are quite painful that people have had to sit through or that were not effective. There's a reason there's resistance.

Mary Skop (20:03.072)
Mm -hmm. It's gonna happen.

Mary Skop (20:13.228)
yeah.

Mary Skop (20:26.252)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (20:26.58)
And there's a reason that there's fears. And if you can approach that with curiosity and then together, like co -creation is the next level of buy -in, right? get buy -in is like, we're gonna do this for you and you're gonna love it. And co -creation is, we're gonna do this with you and you're gonna love it. And I'm gonna learn so much from you in this process too. So.

Mary Skop (20:50.05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Layci (20:52.898)
It's just a slight shift in your posture and your stance when you come into the conversation, but it can make all the difference, especially if you welcome their questions. If you start a conversation with, okay, I want to hear all your instincts, you know your people better than I do, tell me why this won't work. Go for it, you're not gonna offend me. It's amazing how far you can get when you open with, you know,

Mary Skop (21:04.003)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (21:13.516)
Right. Yeah.

Layci (21:21.274)
tell me why this is not a good idea. They're like, what? Okay. And then they will. And then if you can listen and let them know that you hear their concerns and that, that's a valid point. Thanks for bringing that to my attention and share the, you know, it's that they still might not, they're still likely gonna be like, well, this was better.

Mary Skop (21:23.459)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Mary Skop (21:39.8)
Yeah.

Layci (21:48.888)
set up that I've had before with a trainer, but I'm still very skeptical. And that's where I'm like, great, you are going to make me work so hard. And I love it. And it's not trying to convince them, but giving them just permission to have their opinions and thoughts. That also is not what they're used to. they're kind like, wait, you're not trying to change my mind? I'm

If I do a good job, your mind will be changed. don't need, you you just gave me so much valuable input that I'm gonna incorporate into how I train your team because you know your team better than I do. You're gonna see your ideas hopefully and your wisdom reflected. And I can't wait to have you in the room for that. I wanna give you credit where credit is due. So, yep.

Mary Skop (22:19.96)
Right, exactly.

Mary Skop (22:43.387)
Absolutely. Man, there is so much there just in the one, like just one, like one single aspect of leadership, the whole idea of what is it to be a visionary? What is it to be an effective visionary? And, you know, I also love to think about how we are all visionaries in our particular zone of genius.

It does not mean that you are only a visionary if you are the person leading the charge at the front of the room. And just from the point of view, like as a musician, I think about like so many unbelievable, fabulous musicians that I have admired for like most of my life. And I would absolutely describe these brilliant writers as visionaries,

Layci (23:19.397)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (23:39.35)
It's not as in, I have all these great ideas and you just do what I say. There is that beautiful co -creation, collaboration. It's like, I have an idea, please walk beside me in this, because it's going to be even better if I share it with you.

Layci (23:48.282)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (23:55.876)
Right, right. And what you bring to it is gonna make it richer. And so you're absolutely right. And especially when you're leading as a leader of an organization, your department heads should also have some visionary streak in them. And they should know they should be able to see and sell you on the vision for their department and how they're going to bring to life this larger picture.

So if we're hiking the mountain and I have someone in charge of, you you're overseeing nutrition, like they're gonna like, I'm gonna be drooling by the time they're done talking about the meals. And I'm gonna be like, what? never even would have thought about that. That's genius. know, if I'm getting the right people that are truly better at the puzzle pieces that are required than I am, which is what we should be doing, right? Like I should not be as good at

Mary Skop (24:24.983)
Yes.

Mary Skop (24:47.658)
Mm -hmm. Right. Absolutely.

Layci (24:53.582)
and production as you are. And I'm not. there should be people that are better at the skills. And I should be able to describe this is what I want the podcast to do. This is the outcome I want it to have. This is how it ties in to the larger picture of Transcend Leadership Collective and who we are and the influence and the impact we want to have. But your vision

Mary Skop (24:55.278)
Yeah.

Mary Skop (24:59.177)
Ha ha ha!

Mary Skop (25:09.72)
Sure. Right.

Layci (25:23.34)
your genius and your vision is all around the how. And it's like nuance that I don't even think of, like setting up your equipment right. Do people want you in their ears or not? Like, doesn't matter how great your podcast is, if it hurts people's ears, they're not going to listen. And I mean, that's really basic, but it's like the amount of skill that goes into that and the nuance and the strategy that you and Leaf have come up with

Mary Skop (25:29.942)
Sure.

Right.

Mary Skop (25:40.0)
Nope.

Yeah.

Layci (25:52.506)
connect all the dots and tie it into the larger. that is, that is like you have vision for that. I'm just telling you, here's what I want. Here's the outcomes I want. And then you're like, here's this beautiful picture of how we can make this happen. Here's this and this and this and this. And you have your own pantry, right? With your own ingredients set. And so you get to bring your lemon bars to the party.

Mary Skop (26:01.28)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (26:15.392)
Right. Yeah.

Mary Skop (26:21.959)
Ooh. No, that's great. No, I do too.

Layci (26:22.256)
I just, I really, I really like lemon bars. I didn't used to. I think as I, I think it's, I feel like it's like an officially like a middle -aged lady thing to like lemon bars. I don't know.

Mary Skop (26:33.282)
It's like, I think there could be some truth to that. Also, I love the description of the pantry. And also I have a million birthdays in August in my family. So I'm thinking about like all the possibilities now, because I've got like all different kinds of like birthday treats going through my head. So yeah, lemon bars, rite of passage, middle age, here we go. I'm all for it. But just a hint of powdered sugar. wow. Well, wow.

Layci (26:55.088)
Yeah, I used to hate them. Yeah, I used to not like them at all. And then something happened around like 40 that I was like, these are delicious. I have no idea. I have no idea what happened. But my taste buds, apparently they're aging because yeah, anyways.

Mary Skop (27:07.15)
Probably at a church potluck or something. No, I'm kidding. Maybe. that's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. We need, we, we crave more intensity of flavor because like everything.

Layci (27:20.546)
I mean, I am a black coffee, red wine and whiskey kind of girl. So I guess it makes sense. Intensity would be my thing.

Mary Skop (27:24.226)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yes, no, I get that. No, amazing. I love it. Well, I just want to say I'm also a fan of lemon bars and I also want to say thank you, Lacey, for your time. Yeah.

Layci (27:42.224)
Thank you for this fun discussion. It was really fun to just be on the other side of the mic and just get to chat and share and great questions. So I look forward to doing it again. Listeners, I hope you like pick something up. There was a lot in there, I think.

Mary Skop (27:49.111)
Yeah.

Mary Skop (27:54.636)
Yes, absolutely.

Mm -hmm. Yeah, big topic. But Lacey, would you go ahead and see us out?

Layci (28:03.606)
I absolutely will. my goodness. Okay, friends, until next time, go manage like a leader.

Mary Skop (28:06.25)
You