S3, Ep. 6: Healing and Leading: Donna Temm on Trauma-Informed Leadership
S3:E6

S3, Ep. 6: Healing and Leading: Donna Temm on Trauma-Informed Leadership

Layci (00:00.89)
Hello listeners and welcome back to Confessions of a Terrible Leader. I am your host and let's not forget former terrible leader, Lacey Nelson. Thank you. Thank you listeners for coming back week after week. Boy, do we have a good conversation in store for you today. I am thrilled to introduce Donna Tem. She is an author. She is a speaker and I have so many questions.

She is a coach for high performers, specifically those that have experienced trauma. She is a trauma -informed coach for the S -type As. I'm sure I got a lot of you listening. I know I definitely identify as falling within her demographic. Donna, welcome to the show. Thank you for being

Donna Temm (00:53.25)
Thank you so much, Lacey. I am so happy to be here and I'm looking so forward to our conversation we're going to

Layci (01:00.582)
Well, I've got so many questions. Okay. You must have quite the journey, the story. I don't think you wake up one day and go, you know, I think I want to really help these high performers that have experienced trauma without having some kind of amazing backstory yourself. How did you get to this point in your journey, in your

Donna Temm (01:25.154)
Yes, you are right. And it has been quite a journey and it's been a long journey and it has not always been an easy one. You know how they say you're always going uphill, uphill, uphill, and there's got to be a downhill somehow where you can kind of put it on coast, right? And I think that as a high performer, high achiever myself, I have had a background in

Layci (01:34.82)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (01:47.91)
And so that's sort of where the story begins is that I did experience childhood abuse. We're getting right into it, aren't we? And we're going for it, but it's a big part of my story. And so, you know, for many, many years, the memories were repressed and what ended up happening was I grew and as I grew, I grew as a person and I realized

Layci (01:56.59)
Yeah we are, we're just going for

Layci (02:15.258)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (02:17.55)
There were certain things that I needed to have in my life a certain way, i .e. the high achiever and the high performer, right? And so, you know, it was like, well, is this a control thing? And if so, why? So there were a lot of questions from me. And then there were, again, I'll give you the short cliff notes about it, but I was an educator and I was in the public school system. And I was really drawn for some reason to those students

Layci (02:23.32)
Yep.

Layci (02:37.527)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (02:47.096)
who were struggling and were struggling in a particular way, not just their learning, but with their social and emotional needs and their wellbeing. And I was so drawn to them and it was actually triggering for me, but I didn't know why. And I found myself really throwing myself into these kids' lives beyond just being their teacher.

Layci (02:49.36)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (02:59.939)
yeah.

Layci (03:06.468)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (03:13.358)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (03:13.518)
And then we had this amazing and I don't, I think it was called No More Secrets. And it was a play that they were putting on for these kiddos at our school. And so we went to the play and there was one specific child that they knew something was happening. And so they said, can you keep an eye on her? And I said, absolutely. But I found myself sort of like, I'd stopped breathing and I was really struggling.

Layci (03:31.972)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (03:40.302)
Mmm.

Donna Temm (03:41.858)
to get through this whole piece. And so I realized that there was something bigger going on for me, not just these kids. And so I'm just going to fast forward to then being thrown into what the reality of my life had really been. And so I realized that I too had been abused as a child.

Layci (03:43.354)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (03:51.44)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (04:00.742)
Mmm.

Donna Temm (04:06.218)
and it went on and on with a near death experience before it all ended. Yeah. So there was a lot to it. But then I got the help that I needed, which was so important. And so I continued to go on, but there was this soft spot within me for those who really needed the help because I was them at one point in my life. And I just, I felt like I knew what they needed, even if it wasn't the specifics.

Layci (04:09.42)
Ugh. Wow. Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Layci (04:22.106)
Yeah.

Layci (04:26.02)
Yes.

Layci (04:29.946)
Yes.

Layci (04:35.76)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (04:36.044)
I had a basic understanding of what it was they needed. And so then I left teaching and I went in to start my own business because I had been ill. I was in a sick building and nobody knew. So all this was kind of going on simultaneously, right? And so, but you know, everything for a reason. And so it pushed me out of that. And I went into alternative therapies. I became a licensed massage therapist. And

Layci (04:39.76)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (04:44.934)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (04:48.495)
Mmm. my goodness. Yes.

Layci (04:58.52)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (05:01.714)
As I started working with individuals doing that and then eventually energy clearing and other alternative therapies, everyone had a story. And whoever was coming in to see me, there was some element of trauma. And it was just amazing because we can say that trauma is stress, chronic stress.

Layci (05:07.78)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (05:14.054)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (05:21.818)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (05:30.01)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (05:30.394)
And we can say that it's grief or shock or loss or abuse. mean, there's a lot that encompasses the trauma and there's the big T traumas that we talk about that we may get into later. So that is, is, you know, in a very short, short nutshell, you know, small nutshell, how I really started to get into this type of work to work with other

Layci (05:36.9)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Layci (05:46.075)
Yeah.

Layci (05:53.176)
It sounds like it found you. Like, I don't think you could have really avoided this work. It sounds like it absolutely found you as much as you found it.

Donna Temm (06:02.382)
You are right about that. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. And there are even times in my, and you know, cause I've been in, in this year, I've been in business for 20 years and there were times, thank you. Thank you. And there were times when I was like, you know, I think I just need to get out of this and we'll probably talk a little bit more about that later. But, um, and it just, every time I tried to get out, it, just, something will pull me back in and there I was again, you know, so.

Layci (06:12.262)
congratulations!

Layci (06:20.6)
Yeah. Yup.

Layci (06:32.892)
my goodness. You brought something up that I wanted to dig into a little bit deeper for context for our listeners. Trauma is a word that I think gets thrown around a lot. And I don't know that we all understand what it means. And so I appreciate that you said there's big T trauma, there's little T trauma. The way I have come to understand trauma and what trauma is, it's, you could please, I'm asking for correction and redirection if I

have this or we're not in aligned in our understanding because I'm certainly not the expert in this field. So trauma is the, you and I could both go through the same experience. Let's say we witnessed a car accident and you could walk away with no trauma from that, shaken up, but you didn't, you don't necessarily have a traumatic experience. Whereas I could walk away with deep trauma from witnessing exactly the same

because of the way I process the experience internally. Trauma is what happens to us inside and our response to the external stimuli, which also is how I understand why some kids from the same family can have radically different experiences in the same household growing up. Am I on the right track

Donna Temm (07:48.424)
Absolutely. You so are. There's so much truth. And I think, you know, if we want to expand upon that a little bit, I think that we can also have a discussion around nature versus nurture, right? What is in our DNA? You know, what is it that we have seen in our lives? What have we experienced in our lives up until that point of the trauma, maybe the car accident, right? And so what is our nervous systems? What's happening with our nervous systems?

Layci (07:55.738)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (08:00.847)
Ooh, yeah.

Layci (08:11.779)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (08:18.312)
and what condition are our nervous systems in? If somebody goes into a car accident and they've pretty much got a balanced life, there may be some trauma there or some upset, but it may be very different than someone who goes into the same car accident and has already had things happen in their lives where they are hypersensitive or hypervigilant, and their nervous system is definitely going to speak to them in a very different way. Yeah.

Layci (08:27.066)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Layci (08:38.838)
Mmm.

Layci (08:45.61)
yeah, that makes so much sense. didn't, I think that's the first time I'm putting those dots together with the capacity that you have going into the situation. So what is it about high performers? Why in my, I'm speaking not from a study, but just from experiential, my personal experience, there are a lot of high performers

Donna Temm (08:56.685)
Right.

Layci (09:15.226)
have had traumatic experiences. I just speaking, like, is it a higher proportion than the rest of society or am I just imagining that that correlation is a cause, like, how are they connected? Is that real?

Donna Temm (09:30.494)
Right, right. You know, it's funny because I don't have actual numbers. I mean, I couldn't really actually speak to that and be able to say, let's note this reference or let's note that reference. But what I will say is that a lot of times when people come in and they have had the big T traumas, that is when I see there's more of a sense of I need to

Layci (09:35.428)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Right.

Layci (09:52.176)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (10:00.02)
in control. And if I'm performing at a higher level and if I'm achieving at a higher level, I got my finger on the pulse. I'm going to know what's going on and I'm going to be able to have my needs met, whatever that may be. And sometimes, and that's the thing, like everybody has these different needs, know, other than our needs for food, clothing, shelter, love, all of that. We also have these needs where

Layci (10:04.634)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (10:09.616)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (10:28.118)
You know, some of us really have to have certainty in our lives, whereas other people, drives them absolutely crazy to have certainty in the same structure all the time. They need variety. And so, you know, then there are others who are going for growth opportunities, and then there are others who need to be very significant. So we all have our different needs that need to get met that are important to us. And so if we have trauma,

Layci (10:32.912)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (10:40.043)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Layci (10:46.82)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (10:57.696)
and then we have certain needs, the way we react to that trauma is going to be a little bit different. I'm more of a, need that certainty. And so I'm going to have my little schedule and I can veer from it, absolutely can, but I need to know at the end of the day for me to regroup and catch my breath, I've got that little bit of structure underneath me. Whereas other people are more adventurous. They're like,

Layci (10:57.882)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (11:04.73)
Mmm.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Layci (11:23.44)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (11:23.758)
I can't do this. I need to have something else that I'm thinking about rather than what my reality is. So I'm going to be adventurous. I'm going to give myself something new to think about all the time. Does that make sense?

Layci (11:33.496)
Yeah, it does. It does. It sounds like there's just different coping mechanisms. It's different ways that we're coping with the stress. And at some point for anybody's coping mechanism, when taken to the extreme, it no longer serves us well or is healthy. And so I want to back up just a tiny bit. What is big

Donna Temm (11:55.83)
And that's exactly

Donna Temm (12:00.909)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (12:03.098)
T -trauma versus little t -trauma. What's the difference?

Donna Temm (12:06.156)
Yeah. Right. The big T trauma, a lot of it, and if people want to know more information about that too, there's what's called the ACEs. And I know that you know all about that as well, adverse childhood experiences. And there's a whole list. So people can definitely look that up. One of them is absolutely abuse. That is a big T trauma. And in my work, that's the one that I bump up against the most.

Layci (12:15.237)
Yes.

Layci (12:20.622)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (12:29.68)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (12:35.686)
Mmm.

Donna Temm (12:35.862)
is either the abuse or there's neglect. And sometimes we can say, neglect, is it really neglect if A happens or B happens? But again, I want to circle back to what you said in the beginning about it's how it's perceived. Right? And so we can have all these things

Layci (12:39.706)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (12:55.407)
Right.

Donna Temm (12:59.982)
We can maybe fit people into boxes about what is really big T and little T. But again, it's one of the things that I always try to do is I try to look at the individual as a whole person and say, okay, even if it's, you some people will come and say, you know, it's just chronic stress. Well, it's just chronic stress, but it's different for you because of what you bring to the table.

Layci (13:03.842)
Mm hmm. Right.

Layci (13:13.498)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (13:27.258)
and where you're at at this time in your life. So it may be chronic stress that is really, really tearing down relationships. And that's a big trauma for people as well, is when their relationships are falling apart as well. So there's just so, so many different ways to look at it and so many different things that we need to take into consideration.

Layci (13:27.534)
Right.

Layci (13:50.917)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (13:55.375)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (13:55.638)
And I feel like part of the way that I work is to do exactly that. It's to look at individuals for who they are and to really look at them as a whole person. Because if you don't know the whole person, you really can't help them in the way that they need to be helped.

Layci (14:09.53)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (14:17.546)
absolutely. Absolutely. So knowing that a lot of our listeners, they are running teams. And when we're coaching and helping people learn how to be better leaders, one of the things we like to remind them about is that their people are walking through the door with coping mechanisms that have served them well in some point in their life.

They might not be serving them well anymore, but at some point in their life, know, thank you past self, you kept me alive. We don't need to do this anymore. They may not be doing that work that they need to be doing. They may not even have the awareness, which is like step one for change, right? So they may not even have the awareness that that's happening, but you're the supervisor, you're the boss, you're the owner of the company. And it's ridiculous to think people are going to leave their baggage at the door when they come in. In fact, you can unintentionally

Donna Temm (14:57.698)
That's right.

Layci (15:13.218)
exceptionally triggering depending on what baggage they're bringing in with them to some of those patterns without you even knowing it. with recognizing that as leaders, our job is not, we're not therapists, we're not counselors. We need to not try to take those roles on. I do see really compassionate, empathetic leaders sometimes go so far the other direction in that they are, they're actually, I mean, they're way out of their scope, way out of their lane.

Donna Temm (15:18.826)
Yes. Yes.

Layci (15:42.498)
It's like asking your dentist about, you know, liver, can't treat my liver cancer, right? Your dentist isn't going to know how to do that and nor should your dentist try. So if they do run away fast. So how, how do you, what advice do you have for those of us that are, we can see it, we can recognize there's some patterns here. We maybe know enough about it, have enough history in it, but we're not.

Donna Temm (15:49.161)
Exactly.

Donna Temm (15:55.436)
Yeah.

Layci (16:10.732)
in that role. Even if we were trained, it's not an appropriate relationship. What feedback do you have for us in navigating those waters when really especially, I mean, we're, I feel like a large portion of the population is just walking around with gaping wounds right now that are oozing all over everybody.

Donna Temm (16:14.53)
Right, absolutely.

Donna Temm (16:32.544)
Yes, I would agree with you on that. Absolutely.

Layci (16:37.282)
What wisdom do you have for those of us that are just trying to navigate, be empathetic, be good leaders, knowing that we've got teams full of wounded people?

but we're not in the counselor seat. Do you have any insight into

Donna Temm (16:53.806)
You know, I really do because I see this a lot. And I think that sometimes we expect a lot from our leaders. And we have to remember that our leaders are our leaders in a specific realm because they have specific skills that make them a leader in that realm. But it doesn't mean that they have the emotional ability to really reason why maybe the people that they are managing

Layci (17:12.685)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (17:23.826)
are behaving as they are. So I think number one, we really have to look deeper at the people that we're working with. And it doesn't mean that you have to know what's going on, but I think sometimes just being approachable and recognizing instead of imposing upon them, well, you must do this, you must do this, you must do this without getting any information first. I think sometimes having that conversation where it's an open conversation.

Layci (17:24.012)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Layci (17:30.34)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (17:36.613)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (17:40.314)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (17:45.551)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (17:52.812)
where you can be approachable and they feel safe enough. It's a safe enough environment for them to confide in you. Now you have a little bit more knowledge what's going on. And then I really feel like as a leader, if you can have at least a general knowledge of, A happens, what is a resource for A that I can send them to? Because you're right, you've got to stay in your own lane.

Layci (17:58.157)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (18:03.225)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (18:15.14)
Right.

Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (18:18.734)
And so if B happens, it was a resource that I can lead this person to. And so it's really about having not the deep expertise in every single area, but instead having the ability to have those communication skills with those that you're working with. And then really a big piece of it is that we are so resilient.

Layci (18:34.253)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (18:41.765)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (18:48.414)
All of us are so resilient. If we are given what it is we need, if we are given the ability to feel like we're cared about and cared for, not taken care of, that's enabling, right? We don't want to enable anyone, but we do want to give them a chance, especially in the professional world, because if you hired this person, there was a point in time you saw value in

Layci (18:59.276)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Right, right.

Layci (19:17.316)
Right.

Donna Temm (19:17.778)
So, you know, it's like, okay, if something is off right now, let's look back. Let's find out what's off. Why is it off? Is there a way that I can help them? And then really getting to know what their strengths are, what their challenges are, and then setting them up for success and then reevaluating as you're doing. And you know, this is for anyone really, right? Anyone that we're working with, whether it's trauma or

Layci (19:25.7)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (19:34.445)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (19:43.672)
Right. Right.

Donna Temm (19:47.47)
But we want to reevaluate and then we want to just continue to get them to that next level. And I think as leaders, that's what we want to do. We want to get the person to the next level because it's going to benefit not only the business or whatever service or whatever is being provided, but it's also going to benefit that person. I mean, the more we have people living healthier lives,

Layci (20:10.453)
yeah.

Donna Temm (20:14.968)
both physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, all of those things, that shifts our world. And it's that sixth degree of separation, right? And that ripple effect, anybody that we can really add some value to their life, it is going to impact however many people they come into contact with, which will impact each one of those people with whoever they come into contact with. You know? Yes.

Layci (20:32.58)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (20:37.786)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (20:42.168)
A million percent, a million percent. And I think one of the things that we've noticed when we're coaching leaders, when we're working with, we develop curriculums for leadership academies and multiple organizations, large, very large companies down to like a family farm. And one of the things that we always include is teaching emotional intelligence, which is staying within our lane, staying within our scope.

But even just having that understanding of where to even begin with self -awareness is so empowering to so many people. And I think it's easy when we're interested in this stuff. If you're listening to this podcast, you picked it out because you're like, something about trauma, you know, like there's something in you that you're already interested in this stuff. You would likely have a background. This is likely not your first rodeo hearing about

Donna Temm (21:21.326)
Yes. Yes.

Layci (21:40.25)
these concepts, but I think we can forget and get blinded to if this interests us, like there is most of the population has no idea about even the base level of what it takes to actually become self -aware. And then what do you do with it? And emotional regulation and central nervous system regulation. Like they are not in touch with that. So even just offering

Donna Temm (21:51.118)
Right.

Donna Temm (21:58.776)
Yes.

Layci (22:07.014)
the knowledge and the starting point and the ability to assess as part of training within the context of leadership, what we're finding is that we're getting them coming back with all of these success stories that are happening not just within their teams, but in their homes. And when they can connect, my job made my life at home better because they cared about

Donna Temm (22:27.209)
Yes.

Layci (22:35.726)
and help me get this skill set. Talk about a massive connection value add. It does so much. I mean, obviously you're going to keep them longer. It's going to benefit their engagement. They're going to have more of a loyalty to the organization. But when we're doing it from the place of that's what we want, they can feel it. It feels icky. But if you're doing it from the place

Donna Temm (22:38.701)
Yes.

Donna Temm (22:53.283)
Yes.

Donna Temm (23:00.127)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Layci (23:05.07)
We want to make your life better and we're investing in you. And I think if you learn this stuff, it's going to help you at work. And of course we want that, but we also acknowledge we want your life at home to be great too. And if you have approach, if you have authenticity in that, my gosh, sky's the limit for potential in developing your people and your relationships.

Donna Temm (23:25.632)
I totally agree. And if I can circle back a little bit, I also feel like we have to remember, you know, when we have our leaders out there, we have to remember that our leaders are humans too. And so our leaders don't necessarily have the emotional intelligence themselves. They've got beautiful skills. They've got amazing expertise, but they don't always have that. And a lot of times

Layci (23:35.386)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (23:39.577)
yes.

Layci (23:46.008)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Right.

Donna Temm (23:53.966)
high achievers and high performers, there was something that pushed them to that level. So there may be, again, some trauma behind it, however you want to define that. So I think that, you know, for me, professional development is so important for, you know, from top down and bottom up, right? And I think it's just really, really important to give every single person the support they need at the level that they need

Layci (23:58.991)
Yes.

Layci (24:10.182)
Mm -hmm.

Yep. Yep.

Layci (24:21.548)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. yes. Yes, absolutely.

Donna Temm (24:24.16)
and meet them where they're at. Yeah.

Layci (24:32.784)
What is it in these, like, what are the common threads that you're seeing? You work with high achievers, Taipei people all day long. You get a whole room full of me, which the energy in there, I cannot even imagine what the energy is like in your space. I'm sure it's amazing. And I'd be buzzing. What are some commonalities of, or I guess as a

Donna Temm (24:49.11)
Yeah.

Layci (25:01.904)
that's listening to this and they're like, I'm a high achiever. I'm totally identifying with all the things that are being talked about. But I don't know. Am I impacted by trauma? Do you have anything, any checkpoints or just internal reference points? How do we know? You know what? Yeah. How do we move from like, I think maybe to like, yeah, I actually am impacted by trauma.

What advice do you have for that person that's just kind of starting that journey and healing and figuring out, man, yeah, I am holding on. Like, that's me, I need to raise my hand. What do they need to know to raise their hand with confidence and say, I'm impacted and I need

Donna Temm (25:47.602)
Right, right, exactly. You know, I think there are so many answers to that. I am going to say that, and I don't know if this is a right or wrong answer, to be honest with you, but it's what my experience was. And it was, you know, don't don't go digging if there's nothing to dig for. Right. Because if you're doing OK, if you're walking through life and you have the normal upsets and you have

Layci (26:08.009)
Mmm. Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (26:15.106)
you know, these certain feelings or these certain emotions, but you're still able to walk through life and it's not detrimental to you or those around you. You know, then don't dig. But the minute you start seeing like, wow, I feel like I'm losing my sense of self. I feel like I have these, these fears that I cannot make sense of. I feel

Layci (26:24.685)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Layci (26:34.042)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (26:40.208)
Mm -hmm.

Mmm.

Donna Temm (26:45.076)
I'm having these thoughts, but I don't have any idea where they're coming from. And they're not uplifting thoughts. It may be that they've been so externally involved in someone else's drama and trauma. And they've now decided, I don't know where they end and I begin. Right. And a lot of times that's what happens.

Layci (26:53.36)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (27:05.264)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (27:10.374)
Mmm. Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (27:14.58)
is that we can resonate with that. And so now we lose ourselves. And so I feel like when you start, a lot of the high performing, high achievers, one of the things that they typically notice is that they've lost their sense of self. And so when we go into that, and I tell people, because trauma, can be frightening.

Layci (27:17.636)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (27:22.308)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Layci (27:37.699)
Mmm.

Donna Temm (27:43.97)
Some people are like, I don't want to know. If that happened to me, that's right. That's right. And that's okay. Again, if you are not going down, you know, the tubes by, you know, yourself or doing that to somebody else, you know, I always say, look, if you want to be where you're at and your, know, what isn't negatively rolling onto other people, absolutely fine.

Layci (27:44.373)
yeah!

Yeah, I don't want to touch it. Yep.

Donna Temm (28:09.09)
But the minute you really are starting to impact yourself in a really not good way and then hurting others, you really have to sort of take a look, you know, you really do. Yeah. And I think if I can say one thing, because I know that there are going to be some people that will be listening and this I see a lot. And there are some people who will be listening and say, my goodness, I had that. I felt that way.

Layci (28:19.108)
You gotta deal. You gotta look. Yeah.

Layci (28:28.346)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (28:38.553)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (28:38.886)
something like that kind of happened. And they're going to say, did it happen to me? And I want to say this. The answer may be yes. The answer may be no, because we can have all the same emotions, right? We can have anger. We can have fear. We can have disappointment. We can have all those emotions, but it doesn't all lead to the same source. I might be angry about one thing.

Layci (28:45.243)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (28:48.848)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (28:55.821)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (28:59.386)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (29:06.34)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (29:08.29)
But you're angry about something different. And it doesn't mean that we have that commonality, right? Of like what that source was. So I always caution people about that because I don't also want people running scared. You know, I want them to just know if you feel and you will, you will, there'll be a time when it's going to hit you and there's going to be this little light bulb moment and you're going to go, something is not

Layci (29:22.212)
Right. Right.

Layci (29:31.523)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (29:37.504)
And it's really not right. And that's when I say to people, get support right away. If it is someone that you trust and you just say to them, I've got to tell you something. I trust you. Please do not let this pass through your lips ever. Right. And then you just say, because we sometimes we can get a handle on what we're thinking by listening to others.

Layci (29:39.385)
Yes.

Layci (29:44.177)
Mmm. Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Layci (29:56.0)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (30:04.992)
or hearing ourselves say it out loud versus just that cycle in our heads going over and over again, right? So I would definitely say get help. And then if you're like, okay, that didn't really help me. It's making me wonder more if that then get professional help. And I think it's so important. you know, people all have their different reasons for not wanting to get that professional help.

Layci (30:07.694)
Right, right.

yes. yes.

Layci (30:21.306)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (30:24.699)
Right.

Layci (30:32.741)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (30:34.174)
And I would ask them to please just really look at the reasons why a little bit more deeply because boy, when trauma, big T trauma does hit, it hits hard. And you really, if you think you're going to do it alone, you're probably not going to do very well with

Layci (30:46.32)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (30:50.768)
Yeah.

Right, I really don't want to try to do surgery on myself. That's not a good idea.

Donna Temm (30:57.566)
Right, right. Exactly. Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Layci (31:03.174)
man. Well, Donna, I want to transition us a bit and invite you in to the confessional to step in and give us in your amazing story. What is one of the mistakes that you're willing to share today in this journey? Let's hear

Donna Temm (31:11.702)
Okay. Okay.

Donna Temm (31:28.542)
Okay, here we go. You ready? Okay. Okay. And I honestly, I don't think anybody's going to be shocked about this, but I call this chapter in my life, the mindless mindfulness leader because

Layci (31:30.906)
I'm so ready.

Layci (31:35.962)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (31:44.242)
my gosh, okay, I'm so invested already. All

Donna Temm (31:46.958)
Yeah, and so really what it comes down to is that I was running my business all heart, wasn't using my head. I had so much compassion for people. I had such an investment in seeing people get well, in seeing people live the lives that they wanted to live

Layci (31:59.376)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Layci (32:06.054)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (32:09.499)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Layci (32:16.091)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (32:16.906)
I was so outside of myself that I didn't even realize what was going on internally for me because I was too heart centered and invested. Now that being said, it doesn't mean that I don't believe you should be heart centered. And that being said, right, because I think that that's why we do it because we have this heart centered

Layci (32:25.164)
Mmm.

Layci (32:29.04)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (32:36.868)
Right, right.

Layci (32:42.34)
Yeah.

Donna Temm (32:44.98)
It's what we love. It's what makes us tick. It's what makes us want to help other people. But at the same time, I had this wonderful and my goodness, I am so grateful to him because I had an accountant who had done a lot with business. And so he was also my business advisor and he took me under his wing.

Layci (32:44.997)
Yeah.

Layci (33:02.553)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (33:06.6)
at a very like early start in my business. And I'm so grateful to him. And I think every gray hair he has on his head today has my name somewhere on it because he used to say to me, Donna, this is all great, but you need to use your head too. You're in business. You're not getting an automatic paycheck like you did when you were teaching, right?

Layci (33:06.692)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (33:10.374)
Good.

Layci (33:16.987)
Right?

Layci (33:29.028)
Right. Right.

Donna Temm (33:31.566)
And he's like, you know, we used to talk about billable hours and we used to talk about all these things. And I was just like, no, I'm no, I add extra time in case somebody's processing and they need the extra time. You know, and so it was like. The other thing was, I felt like I it was my journey and it wasn't my journey, right. It was their journey. And and what I had to realize was

Layci (33:34.694)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (33:43.525)
Yeah.

Layci (33:54.104)
Mmm.

Donna Temm (34:01.73)
This was their journey that I was there to help support them through, not do it for them. You can't. But at that time, ding, ding, ding. That's what it was. And I was getting to the point where, you know, I was putting in more time, effort and resources than some of my clients were because they weren't ready. They weren't ready yet. Right.

Layci (34:07.546)
Yes. Yeah, you can't do it for them. It's a ticket to burnout. Yeah.

Layci (34:26.734)
Yes. you're speaking my language. Yes. Yes. I cannot work harder than you do. Like that is like when you're my client, if I'm working harder than you, we're not going to keep working together. Yeah.

Donna Temm (34:38.378)
Right, right. Exactly. you know, and the other thing is, too, is that, you know, money, money was just like full lying out the window because I had some overhead. I mean, it was low. It was low at the time, but I still had overhead and people would come in and, you know, some of them were in a state of crisis. And so they didn't have a lot of money and I could not.

Layci (34:51.97)
Mhm. Yep.

Layci (35:04.228)
Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (35:06.382)
turn them away. And it's not that I want to, but what I was doing was I was keeping my prices very low. And then when people would come in, I would reduce their prices for them, my fees. And then some was like, I give them free. Right. So I had negative margins and I don't know how I did it for 20. I don't know why I'm still in business after 20 years, but I think that was for me.

Layci (35:08.012)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Layci (35:13.787)
Mm -hmm.

Mmm. See ya.

Layci (35:22.79)
So you had like negative margins.

Layci (35:30.936)
Yeah! Yeah!

Donna Temm (35:35.636)
It was probably like a time in my life where I was not a great leader. I was a very compassionate leader, but I was not, was an enabler. I don't even want to say the word, right? I was an enabler. It's what I was doing and it's okay, but it's not okay to continue when you're aware of it. Like you said earlier, awareness is the big thing before you can change it. And it had to hurt first.

Layci (35:42.862)
Great.

Layci (35:48.944)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Layci (35:56.982)
Right, right, yep,

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Donna Temm (36:05.026)
It had to hurt my purse strings. It had to hurt, you know, my pride sometimes. I mean, it had to hurt in ways in order for me to finally say, okay, yep.

Layci (36:11.354)
Yep.

Layci (36:16.71)
Yeah, I wish Payne wasn't such a great teacher, but dang is Payne a great teacher. So it definitely wakes us up. yeah, absolutely. I'm just thinking about my own journey and I'll be in 10 years in business next year. yeah, about six months from now. Thank you. so thinking through looking at my old pricing, like what I used to charge and

Donna Temm (36:20.116)
You got it. It is.

It does.

Donna Temm (36:31.486)
Good for you! Congratulations!

Layci (36:43.782)
I think we all have to learn that lesson, especially when we're in a helping field, right? Like we're also helping, we're helping people that are in a very different vein, but our leaders and they're running their companies and they're feeling overwhelmed and they need all of this help. And it's so easy to go out of scope of what the agreed upon work was. Scope creep happens all the time. And if you're not vigilant and also,

like recognizing that you do need to set at some point. Once you're past your like baby years, initial getting your building up your social proof, building up the like, hey, we can do this, your test cases. When you're over that hump, you got to recognize it soon enough that you know what, I've got to change now because it really is to benefit more people because A, I'm going to have to lay people off from my team if I can't afford them.

Donna Temm (37:30.509)
Yes.

Layci (37:41.152)
and because I'm not charging the right prices and B it's going to limit who I can help in the future if the business disappears. So it's understanding that, that being that, and you're not going to be for everyone. You can't be for everyone. And it's, it's learning to give yourself permission for that and

Donna Temm (37:41.624)
Right.

Donna Temm (37:52.546)
That's

Donna Temm (38:02.082)
That's right.

Donna Temm (38:09.112)
Yes.

Layci (38:09.412)
really understand. And now, you know, we have a ceiling for minimum engagement. Like I'm not going to take on a project unless or a floor, should say, not selling the floor, like unless it's a certain amount, because the margins just aren't there. The return on the time it takes is not there. And learning where that was and when it makes sense for. OK, maybe we're not the right fit for you, but let me refer you to someone who is

Donna Temm (38:18.935)
Yeah,

Layci (38:38.778)
to the Small Business Association. There's tons of free resources, but I had to learn that the painful way as well. So you're speaking my language, I'm hearing you. Yes, and such a valuable piece of information to share for business owners, especially those owners that are in the helping professions that are hyper compassionate. And sometimes you'll see the same concept manifest

Donna Temm (38:47.608)
Okay, all right. We're on the same page. Absolutely. Yes.

Donna Temm (39:01.496)
Yes.

Layci (39:04.834)
you get so invested in the success of one person, but it's at the detriment to the rest of the team. So like when they're your team member and realizing that if you're repeatedly sacrificing the good of the many for the benefit of the one or the few, it's your issue as a leader and you have to reorient where you're laying your priorities.

Donna Temm (39:10.765)
Right.

Yeah, absolutely.

Donna Temm (39:25.654)
Yes. I agree because what happens then is even the most of compassionate people then start to, the morale goes down, right? When they see this happening and people notice, like don't think people aren't noticing what you're doing, what you're saying. When you think they're not noticing, they're noticing. that's right. That's right. Absolutely. And so I think that's such a valid point because

Layci (39:34.084)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (39:38.055)
yeah!

Layci (39:43.62)
Yep. they're probably noticing before you're noticing,

Donna Temm (39:53.388)
I think one of the biggest things, and again, it's not always about the bottom line, obviously, of productivity, efficiency, all of that stuff, but it impacts the bottom line. If your morale is not there, people, if they feel like they are cared about and they are valued, they are going to go way beyond what their salary or hourly wages for you.

Layci (39:58.054)
Mm -hmm, mm -hmm.

Layci (40:05.776)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (40:17.322)
yes, a million percent, a million percent.

Donna Temm (40:20.842)
Yeah, but the opposite too is if they feel like, bother? Right? They're not going to bother.

Layci (40:26.713)
Yeah, yeah.

They're really not. I think what we're starting to see, it's so fascinating. The generation, probably my generation, our generation, a little bit older, they're starting to make that, to recognize there is just not loyalty to business just coming in the door for almost anyone that is a really young millennial or a Gen Z.

Whereas before people would be like, I just want to work for this company. That reality is disappearing if it's not entirely gone. And it's so interesting when that is gone, that requires an extra level of being equipped as an excellent leader because they don't care what label you're wearing from what company. They care about how their work can be integrated into the rest of their life.

And how does it make them feel to show up and do they want to be there? And if they don't, they're going to bounce. So all of that, that's a lot and wrapping and we're definitely over time. So I want to respect your time. This has been such a good conversation. Yes. Yes. Wrapping that into just bringing us back around to understanding ourselves as leaders is more critical than it's ever been.

Donna Temm (41:37.934)
I love it. I love it. I've had so much fun.

Layci (41:53.862)
And it is, there's more, I would say you have more of an impact on whether your people are going to stay or go than ever before. And if you have a, if you have that voice that says you need to do something there, you're not okay, you've been trauma impacted, listen to it and reach out because you cannot lead well if you're not dealing with your own stuff.

Donna Temm (42:16.046)
Yes. Yes.

Donna Temm (42:22.604)
Yeah, absolutely. You

Layci (42:23.492)
You just can't. And if you're a business owner, nothing, including parenting, which is saying a lot, I parenting teenager now, nothing has surfaced my own stuff more than owning a business, including parenting and including living life. It just hasn't. there's something about that business ownership that is

Donna Temm (42:37.367)
That's right.

Donna Temm (42:50.018)
There really is.

Layci (42:52.195)
It's just incredible for surfacing the good and the bad. So yeah.

Donna Temm (42:56.36)
Yes, yes, absolutely. I agree. And, you know, I have a program that I developed in the first module for that program is all about the person before they even learn any other skill to work with someone else. They have to look at themselves first because they're going to be triggered. They are. It's not it's not if it's when, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Layci (43:08.464)
Mmm.

Layci (43:14.83)
A million percent. Yep.

Layci (43:20.65)
absolutely. It is not if you are getting into this game, you are going to be triggered many, many times. So get some skills. Donna, if they want to find you, we will drop everything in the show notes. So please send us all your links. But generally, what is the best way to get ahold of you? How do we find your book? Where do we go for the Donna experience?

Donna Temm (43:26.682)
You got it. Yes. There you go. Absolutely.

Donna Temm (43:42.808)
yes. Right. Right. Okay. Well, probably the quickest way to get my book would be Amazon. And it's your only as sick as your secrets. Yep. And then to reach me, they can go to DonaTem .com and, or they can reach me. I'll give you everything else. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Facebook. I have a Gmail, you know, email.

Layci (43:59.502)
Okay? Okay?

Donna Temm (44:09.4)
There's a contact page on my website. So there's lots and lots of ways people can reach me. And I'm always happy and open. And I have a lot of freebies that I give out. So if they're interested and they feel like they need something, but they don't have a whole lot of money, don't let that, you know, be a detriment to them. Let them, you got it. There you go. Absolutely. Yeah. Good.

Layci (44:14.426)
Okay.

Layci (44:19.93)
Nice.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

They can start taking action today by just downloading some of the stuff you have for them. Excellent. Excellent. Well, Donna, thank you so much. You've been a tremendous guest. This has been such a valuable conversation. I think we could keep going for hours, but in all fairness to you and our listeners, I will say goodbye and listeners until next time, go manage like a leader.