S3, Ep. 4: Change is Inevitable- Here's How to Do it Well, feat. Carl King, Change Consultant and Coach

Layci (00:00.952)
Hello listeners and welcome back to confessions of a terrible leader. I'm your host and former absolutely horrendously terrible leader Layci Nelson. I feel every time I say it, I'm like saying it, making that confession one more time that I would not always been good at this. It feels like another weight comes off my back, right? Like just that freedom of being able to tell my story and say where I'm from.

which talking about stories, we have Carl King on today. Carl is, he owns a consultancy. He is a change consultant. Carl, welcome to the show. Thank you for joining us today.

Carl King (00:44.041)
Thanks for having me, Layci. Glad to be on.

Layci (00:47.168)
Now, I imagine that you did not arrive at being a change consultant without having some massive change in your own life. How does one get or how did you, because everyone's path is different, get to this position where you're helping other people navigate change? Tell us a little bit about your journey.

Carl King (01:01.626)
huh. Yeah.

Carl King (01:08.253)
Yeah, I think to your point, yeah, don't, you don't, at least hopefully you don't become a change consultant without actually having walked the path yourself and you can't talk the talk unless you've walked the walk. So I've gone through multiple iterations of not just, not just life change, but also experimentation. And through that have found this to be the path that

adequately allows me to be a leader, to help others, and to fulfill kind of what my purpose is in

Layci (01:45.058)
What is your purpose in life? We're gonna go right in.

Carl King (01:46.855)
It's to help people. Yeah. Yeah. I want to help people. want to, I want to see other people optimize kind of who they are, what they are. And yeah. And, and to be there, I know it's, it's a cliche, but to truly be their best self.

Layci (02:02.092)
Yeah. Well, what is your, tell us a little bit about your background before you were in change consulting. What, what, what's your professional history? what led you to the moment of like, I think change consulting is what I'd like to look into next.

Carl King (02:20.043)
Wow, yeah, I I think that is that is the question of the I don't know not nothing but the question of my life I talked to like my Family and they'll ask me something or will be in a in a particular Situation or whatever and I'll say yeah, I used to do that and they'll be like what come on. Are you serious? And yeah, so I've had multiple

Layci (02:30.595)
Yeah.

Layci (02:42.028)
Mm -hmm.

Carl King (02:47.019)
I say iterations, but I've gone on multiple paths trying to find what that thing is for me. know, was formerly a postal carrier. was a telemarketer model. I worked for the Federal Reserve and IT. I worked in the examinations department. I ran a landscaping business. I've been a real estate investor and flipped houses and that kind of stuff. So multiple things, but

Layci (02:54.338)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (03:02.604)
Mm -hmm.

Carl King (03:16.843)
I think the two parallel tracks that have kind of most, I guess most specifically filled my life were at 14, I became a preacher. And so for about 20 years, I was a minister, preacher, pastor, youth minister, worship leader, all of that. And then the other parallel track would be singing. And so a career in music and being a professional musician.

Layci (03:19.607)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (03:29.292)
Mm.

Carl King (03:44.563)
singer has, yeah, so those two things I would

Layci (03:48.202)
Okay. And so those are those are the constants, right? That I've always been there. Is that are you still preaching now? Or is that something you do

Carl King (03:53.843)
Yes, indeed.

Carl King (03:58.031)
No, I'm not. And that was, that was part of that change, right? Part of that kind of, in fact, a major identity shift. So it wasn't like an easy thing. And that, that's why I think for me, that gives me the ability to help others to identify and to shift their identity and understanding, right? That empathy, that it's not easy. That is actually a really, really challenging thing if it's something that you've identified with for decades.

Layci (04:06.744)
Yeah.

Layci (04:21.07)
Yep. Right.

Layci (04:27.694)
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. It is world rocking. to have that shift. What was your, did you know that you were moving to, was it like an instantaneous, I, this is not aligning with me anymore? Or was it a gradual shift? How did you go from, I've been a pastor for 24 years to actually that's not, that's not in alignment with me anymore. How did that happen?

Carl King (04:32.427)
You're right.

Carl King (04:43.796)
Mmm.

Carl King (04:49.791)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Carl King (04:55.443)
Yeah, no, it was a gradual shift, definitely. And there were, I would say, periods of very intense identification or times when I really noticed what was going on and what worked for me, what didn't, what wasn't aligning with who I was becoming. Because, I mean, none of us are static, right? None of us are this,

Layci (05:06.542)
Mm -hmm.

Carl King (05:22.153)
I'm this person doing this thing forever. Yeah, so it was definitely very gradual, it was an evolution. Does that answer your question or is?

Layci (05:31.257)
Okay. It does. It does. it, when you walked away or made the shift, made the change and stepped into the path that was next.

Carl King (05:39.893)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Layci (05:47.884)
What was that like, not only internally, but externally? It can be hard on relationships when you make changes and people are, they don't know what to do with it.

Carl King (05:54.619)
Yes.

Carl King (06:01.183)
Yeah, they expect you. mean, I think the interesting thing about being in, I mean, we're social creatures and I think people like to be able to identify you as one thing. If you're at a, if you're at a party or an event, people don't know you. Almost the first question is, so what do you do? Right. And, and that's how they kind of put you in a box and it's not a bad thing. So I don't mean

Layci (06:14.424)
Mm -hmm.

Carl King (06:27.189)
pejoratively, but this is the way that we categorize. This is this person. This is how I know how to interact with them. And so for me, part of that shift was, whoof. it was, yeah, I'm kind of, kind of re reliving and revisiting. were some social ties that I wasn't willing to give up because, you know, if, if people have a specific connection to you in a specific way,

Layci (06:28.652)
Right.

Layci (06:48.91)
Mm -hmm.

Carl King (06:57.161)
them not being able to associate with you in that context really gets difficult. yeah, so I took, was, was, I went through a really, really difficult time with a church that I, I left Fort Worth, Texas where I was originally raised and moved to Chicago land, that metropolitan area and was there and went to restart a church and.

Layci (07:15.021)
Okay.

Layci (07:23.809)
Mm -hmm.

Carl King (07:24.881)
it, maybe this is too much information or background. But, yes, I I went to re, kind of restart or relaunch a church. I was, and we'll get to, I have a feeling this being confessions of a terrible leader, we'll get to kind of what, what informed my terrible leadership here. But, yeah, I went there,

Layci (07:26.86)
no, this is great.

Carl King (07:52.145)
It was a really difficult time. And so after I left that particular pastorate, I took one year and I said, I'm not going to do any ministry. I'm not going to preach. I'm not going to be identified as a preacher. And that, that shift or that disconnection that year was excruciating. But I think that moment allowed me to gradually separate myself from that identity.

Layci (08:06.306)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (08:20.706)
Mm -hmm.

Carl King (08:20.765)
and begin to form a new me and a new way of identifying with the

Layci (08:28.891)
Was it excruciating because you just felt untethered, like you weren't anchored? Was that the part that was, I'm making a leap, but I wanna check in with you.

Carl King (08:40.739)
No, it's okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, being, being untethered from, because I mean, that becomes your reality, right? That becomes your, your touchstone that, you you can come back. I, if everything else fails, I'll always be this or I'll always have this. And when you don't have that, like when I don't, didn't have a congregation to speak to, I think because part of what my identity has always been is writing and speaking.

Layci (08:47.768)
Mm -hmm.

Carl King (09:08.349)
And so it wasn't being a minister necessarily. I, but because I was a minister, was constantly having to produce either sermons or write or speak and, deliver this stuff to, to congregations. And so it wasn't, I, it took a while to separate. Okay. I like to write and I like to speak from, I am a minister. Does that, does that make sense?

Layci (09:17.72)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (09:33.6)
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. When we are working with our clients, often are our leaders that are all over the map as far as like size of organization. We work with people running everything from like nine figure organizations to someone that's still in the upper, rarely the upper six, but they're just figuring it out. Right. So when we're talking to, that demographic, we always

Carl King (09:57.088)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Layci (10:03.798)
always say, what are your core values and what's your sense of purpose? And we ask them to look back through their life for those common threads so that it allows them the flexibility to shift the way it's being expressed. So what I'm hearing in you is that your common thread is I am a communicator. I write, I communicate, and I do it with the intention of pouring into people so they can have a more enriched

and liberated life. Is that true? Okay. And so seeing that thread through your life, the vehicle with which you delivered that has changed, but that sense, that deep sense of like, okay, this is what I have.

Carl King (10:35.187)
Yes. that's absolutely it. It feels spot on. Yes, definitely.

Layci (10:57.73)
essentially like been put here for, this is what feels like breathing air to me, this is something I can't help but do, that has been consistent. And uncovering that, man, that is rough to get. Most of us don't figure that out without some significant bumps and pain. So when you're working with people that

Carl King (11:00.019)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Sure.

Yes, yes.

Carl King (11:12.255)
Yeah.

Carl King (11:17.457)
Absolutely.

Layci (11:24.638)
in the midst? Are you finding they're often in the midst of that identity shift? Or like, when do they come to you? When do they go, man, I need Carl. Like, what is that connection point for them?

Carl King (11:33.035)
Yeah. Yeah. For me, it's oftentimes, and I've kind of positioned what I do in kind of my brand or whatever around is called, you know, chord changes. So the event happens and what do we do with that event? And the metaphor I like to use is we're all either in a band or an orchestra and people around us are playing and sometimes something happens.

Layci (11:42.892)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (11:49.922)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (11:54.68)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Carl King (11:59.421)
Right? Sometimes we either like we initiate a change in the chord or someone around us. If you, if you envision like a small jazz band, the drummer then starts out on a solo. You're playing the piano. What do you do? Do you, do you play over them really loud or do you allow them the space to play and then you jump in or do you accommodate? And so that's the same thing with our lives. Like sometimes a tragedy happens.

Layci (12:12.416)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Carl King (12:27.637)
We lose a job, we're experiencing relationship challenges or in a business, right? We're looking at an acquisition, we're looking at expansion or merger, or we're having some challenges with employees or whatever. So fill in the blank, obviously. So people come to me when they're experiencing a change, a transformation. And so then they're asking me, okay, so how do

Layci (12:43.213)
Right.

Carl King (12:54.581)
then either recover from or how do we accommodate that change? Does that make sense?

Layci (12:59.188)
Mm -hmm. It does. It does. So if I was to put some meat on the bones for our audience, I, well, something we recently went through here was an acquisition. It was an acquisition and a merger. And if I was coming to you and saying, man, I don't know if I should do this or it feels uncomfortable. I'm going through this change. Where would you start with me if I was your client?

Carl King (13:10.62)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Carl King (13:24.081)
I would start, yeah, I would start with the, obviously the leadership team first, right? At the very, very top because, well, obviously there's a lot, but because if, you know, if we're leading, we have to be leading well, we have to know what our motivations are, we have to get clear. And so it's the people side of change, you know, and if the leader is clear on where they're trying to

Layci (13:28.59)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Layci (13:48.888)
Mm -hmm.

Carl King (13:49.109)
then they can lead an organization well. And if they can communicate that well, then the organization can follow where they're going. But if they're not able to either communicate that vision or if they don't really know where they're going, then... Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Layci (14:00.342)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Right, right. Who's going to follow that? It has to be more compelling than, I want to make more money. Like, yeah, yeah. So you help, do you help draw that out of people and then articulate, help them figure out how do you first of all, articulate it, own it for yourself, make sure it's spot on. And then how do you make that

transition from your own head to saying it in a way that is going to be received by your team.

Carl King (14:34.921)
Yeah, and I, my, one of the things that I do work to do is helping leaders and people in the organization understand where they are in the process of change. Because, because change isn't just one thing, as I was, you know, talking with you about my journey, you know, there were multiple iterations where if you had pulled me out in the timeline and said, okay, so where are you right now? Well, I couldn't say,

Layci (14:46.947)
Mmm, yes.

Layci (15:02.115)
Right.

Carl King (15:02.879)
Well, I've, you know, I've obviously know that I've, I'm never going to do this again. And I'm right here. Right. But, so helping people understand where they are, then I think also gives them empathy for others to understand, okay, well, it took me this long to get from here to here and to understand where I'm going. Now I need to be empathetic to my team or my, you know, my, my leadership team or my employees to help them

Layci (15:14.613)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (15:20.184)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (15:27.18)
Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I would imagine it also helps to solve that anchoring issue. Like not solve it, it's a, let me say this succinctly. It is a new tether point when you're feeling like you're just floating in space and there's not, you don't have the meaning making happening by having at least a point in the timeline.

Like, okay, there's a structure here. There's some sort of structure here that I am following or at least a part of. And that can be so helpful during times of change, even just to know where you're at. Like, let's put a pin in the map. Let's just start

Carl King (16:17.245)
Yes, absolutely. And I didn't really used to think that change was measurable. I thought that change was really kind of this, hate the, you know, I don't want to use too many words, but I thought that change was something that you couldn't put a pin in and say, this is where I am. That there wasn't a method or there wasn't a,

Layci (16:27.753)
Mmm. Mm -hmm.

Carl King (16:44.293)
Yeah, a method for understanding what changes, how it happens and where we are in the process. And so, you know, through both my degree and then certifications and some of the work that I've done since some of the changes that I've experienced, it's given me a better methodology for helping others with change.

Layci (16:45.826)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Layci (17:10.882)
Fantastic. my goodness. Well, I have a feeling that your confession that we invited you on to share today is going to be a good one. So, Carl, if you're ready, would you step into the confessional and tell us what is one of your big mistakes that you're willing to share in your leadership journey?

Carl King (17:24.585)
Yes. Yes.

Yes.

Carl King (17:35.348)
Yeah.

My, confession that I will share is that I have not been a good communicator. I think, and I'll give you some for instances of just two, I guess. One is in my, you know, in trying to lead a church and pastor a church well, I have taken a lot of, made a lot of assumptions.

Layci (17:47.576)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (17:51.436)
Yes.

Carl King (18:06.857)
that people knew what I was thinking and where I was going. And as a result, there's been a lot of frustration, a lot of anger, and a lot of, I think, unnecessary complications that have come from me making assumptions that people think just like I do.

Layci (18:07.053)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Layci (18:29.578)
Right, right. Such an important and often painful lesson for those of us in leadership to learn is that we're actually usually the neurodivergent weirdos of the group. Like we're the ones that are not the average or we have to do more work to bring people along with us. And the minute that we start thinking that

Carl King (18:35.613)
Yeah.

Layci (18:58.06)
their brain works like our brain works. And one isn't better. I don't want it to come across as like, because I have this special brain as a leader. It's like, no, no, no, no. We need all the pieces. We need all the people. We all work so differently. But when we're in a seat of leadership, have to learn how to communicate in a way that we're hitting all of the different philosophies of value, personality, types

Carl King (19:00.393)
Mm -hmm.

Carl King (19:10.987)
Yeah.

Layci (19:25.908)
I mean, there's a million ways to frame it up, but you start learning some patterns to communicate more effectively. Who do you, okay, do you have a specific instance, a story to share where you're like, this is an example of me making assumption that did not

Carl King (19:28.672)
Yes.

Carl King (19:32.587)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Carl King (19:45.203)
Yes, yes, I

Layci (19:46.606)
Sorry, excuse me just one second. Sorry, Mary.

Okay, allergy season and I was outside. Bad combo.

Carl King (19:57.535)
Well, while you were talking just a few moments ago, I got to the end of the sentence and I just sneezed really hard. And I think you had looked away and I muted myself fortunately, but yeah.

Layci (20:05.275)
my gosh.

Layci (20:11.062)
It'll be edited. Mary and Leefer amazing. So yeah, they'll just cut all this out. They'll never hear this part. Okay, so we get now that let me take one more drink.

Layci (20:26.294)
And I will count us in and start us over. love that you're a musician because I can count you in easily. And three, two, one.

Carl King (20:31.883)
Sure.

Layci (20:41.678)
So you're going to tell us a story about a time where you're a tendency to make an assumption that people thought like you, like, man, it did not play out well.

Carl King (20:55.699)
Yeah, so I, when I was, and we'll go back to pastoring, but I had the assumption that everyone felt the same way about why we were at that church and what we were doing at the church. And so when I, when I agreed to come, I was under the assumption from one, just like one conversation with

Layci (21:11.352)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (21:24.024)
Mm -hmm.

Carl King (21:24.363)
previous pastor that they had about 52 people in the congregation and that we were going to come in and my family, you know, we were, we were leaving everything in Fort Worth and, know, just picking up and moving. And, you know, this probably sounds completely unrealistic and unwise. Um, but when I came into town,

Layci (21:36.865)
Mm -hmm.

Carl King (21:50.803)
I had left my family in Fort Worth and I was just, you know, going to come in and, and start, you know, fresh on that Sunday. And I come in and there are about eight people and that was the congregation. was, it was eight people. And so my, like my assumption around communication, I should have been much more clear. This is what I need. This is where we are. But then as the, as you know, as

Layci (22:04.752)
wow.

Layci (22:16.342)
Yeah.

Carl King (22:20.373)
poured myself into trying to pastor and trying to help people and trying to build the church, I had a conversation with one of the members. It's okay, no, it's fine. So as I was trying to, you want to wait just a second? Okay. Okay. So then as I was trying

Layci (22:27.424)
Sorry.

Layci (22:37.132)
No, you're good. Go, go ahead. My husband's on it. He's got the dogs.

Carl King (22:44.487)
Expand the church. I was, I was talking to people in the community. I was, you know, what we would call marketing. I was, you know, I joined some associations and I was, you know, talking to people. was, you know, passing out flyers, doing all the things that you need to do to kind of build direct mail, whatever marketing. So trying to build the, the profile of the church. And I sat down with one of the members.

Layci (22:56.696)
Mm -hmm.

Carl King (23:07.365)
And this was a long time member. And as we were having this conversation, he was talking about kind of what he was experiencing in the church. And, you know, I just asked them, like, I, I, I'm out here doing a lot of work, but I'm not seeing you all investing the same kind of energy and passion. What's going on? And he said, well, we, and speaking of, it, it, one of the things I discovered is that there was kind of a, a committee within the church that I wasn't aware of.

And he said, we, yeah, right. We, we just want to die here. And it was, it was jarring because I had not communicated my expectations that we came here and we want this thing to grow. And I hadn't been, I hadn't been communicative around that. And as I began to sit down with him in his home and listen to his story,

Layci (23:51.5)
Yeah.

Layci (23:59.618)
Mm

Carl King (24:01.257)
His story was they had something really good that they were comfortable with and they did not want expansion. They did not want growth. They just wanted someone to kind of talk with them and hold their hand as they experience this thing that was comfortable, that was a routine and a tradition and they just wanted to pass away in this comfortable place. Well, that was diametrically opposed to what and you know, completely the opposite of what I needed.

Layci (24:06.392)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (24:17.53)
Yeah.

Layci (24:29.802)
Right.

Carl King (24:30.108)
And the opposite of what I was trying to do as a leader. Right. So, so it's a, it's a communication thing where I wasn't listening and they weren't listening and yeah. Well, and they couldn't listen because I hadn't communicated what, what the plan was.

Layci (24:33.868)
Yes, yes. that had to be a hard year. right.

Layci (24:47.074)
Right, right. man, those had to be some long nights. Like when you got home and were like, what have we done? Like I just took my whole family and uprooted them. And here I am. So how did that, did that end up, was that your one year tenure? And then you're like, I gotta do something different for a little while.

Carl King (24:51.455)
Yes. Absolutely.

Carl King (25:10.847)
Honestly, Layci, I wish I could say that was my one year. That was, that was year three. And yeah, so, so as a leader, I realized how much communication was important and how much a shared vision, as opposed to a, you know, a leader can come in and try to do something. But if they're trying to do it by themselves and they have a team that is working in the opposite direction, right?

Layci (25:16.017)
man, okay.

Layci (25:27.17)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (25:32.824)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (25:38.99)
Right. Yeah.

Carl King (25:40.943)
And you know, and I've experienced this lately with organizations that want to invest in new technology, software or something like that. And they have, they have members of the team or members of the organization even further down that are very invested in doing time sheets by hand or in doing whatever it may be. We're not going to

Layci (25:49.87)
Yup.

Layci (26:02.764)
Yes, yes, yes, they're like, they are not about this change.

Carl King (26:06.719)
Yeah, we're not going to use Teams. We're not going to use this. We are going to, we have a system. We are really happy with what we're doing and it's not broken. So why are they trying to invest? know, and absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, my background, like realizing that as a leader has helped me then to help leaders understand, listen, this is, and, it's not that your people are wrong.

Layci (26:15.886)
Right, right. It's worked for the last 40 years. Why do we need to do it differently now?

Layci (26:25.954)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (26:33.539)
Mm -hmm.

Carl King (26:33.639)
You need to let them know what's going on, why you're doing this, and then you can have a conversation about how you move forward. But if all you're doing is putting a bunch of money into technology and software, but not communicating and not giving them the vision, then you're going to be at

Layci (26:41.292)
Yes.

Layci (26:51.264)
Yes, it's going to be so extremely frustrating and costly. Even if you end up utilizing the software, A, it's never going to be fully utilized because the people aren't on board. And software is a great example because we see resistance to technology across every industry. And it's constant. So it does feel exhausting when people are like, we just learned a new system four years ago. Now we're changing again and having the empathy for that.

Carl King (26:55.754)
Yes.

Carl King (27:02.173)
Yes, right.

Carl King (27:09.769)
Yes.

Carl King (27:16.435)
Yeah, absolutely.

Layci (27:21.506)
What fantastic insight. So you've already in your story sharing, how are you applying? How is this shaping how you lead today? But do you have anything to add to the way that that experience of learning how vital that is to get everybody united in the vision and unified and rowing in the same direction and the requirements of doing the communication required to get not just buy -in, but like really co -creation of

this new thing that we're going to do or maybe the systems with which the way we're going to implement. Anything to add to how that has shaped your experience has shaped the way you lead today or that you help others lead today.

Carl King (28:07.071)
Yeah, absolutely. So I don't, I don't, I no longer try to begin with, okay, these are the particulars of this change, but more, I think I try to help leaders and teams understand the importance of first awareness, right? So there's a methodology around kind of creating, this is the reason why we need change.

And I think sometimes we go so quick to the specifics of that change, right? So here's your manual. This is how you use this program, this software. This is how you use your new representative. This is how you use your whatever, right? So I think I see leaders trying to give people knowledge instead of giving people insight into their thinking and their why.

Layci (28:42.324)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Layci (28:47.778)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (28:59.457)
Mm -hmm.

Carl King (29:05.767)
And if we can give people an understanding of like, there is a such thing as change exhaustion, where, you said, you know, an organization, we just did this four years ago. Or, you know, I've seen this on both sides as an employee and then as a leader where employees look at a leader and they say, well, they're on one again. They just went to that meeting. They went to that conference. They're fired up.

Layci (29:06.008)
Mmm.

Layci (29:13.964)
Yes.

Layci (29:31.564)
Yep, yep.

Carl King (29:34.663)
And this is going to last all of three months and then we're going to be back. Right. Yeah. And so helping, helping people to understand this is not something that I'm doing, that I'm, I'm being flighty about. This is not something that I'm just, you know, the latest thing that I'm just trying to emulate this company or whatever, but to help people understand, like, this is a well -reasoned thing that we're doing because of this.

Layci (29:37.366)
Yeah, exactly, seen it so many times, yes.

Carl King (30:02.987)
And so, so building awareness, building a, and then building in people a hunger to do that thing, to follow that leader, to follow that change, to be a part of the team, I think is so vitally important. And if we can do that as leaders, then our job is going to be like 20 times easier because we're not pushing people.

Layci (30:03.148)
Right.

Layci (30:12.108)
Yes, yes.

Layci (30:17.856)
Mm

Layci (30:25.39)
Great.

Carl King (30:27.871)
We're actually kind of, you know, on some level just kind of saying, okay, so let's slow it down. I know you want this and we all want this together. Let's find the best way to do this and move forward. So as you said, it's co -creating and it's not a leader dragging people like a, you know, a horse to water.

Layci (30:44.034)
Yes. And I really appreciate how you said we often show up when we're the leaders, we show up at the at the action stage, but really we already went through the other phases. So when I think about implementing change, go out, there's a million models, but I like thinking about the very first is like you said, there's awareness. OK, what we're doing isn't working. We're aware

and then acceptance of like, have to actually do something different and then action, right? And so the time from awareness to acceptance is usually the longest window. And then once you hit the acceptance, the acceptance to action can be literally like hours or days. It can be really fast. Like now it's time to move. But you're so right. What happens is we already went through all of that. But we go in and we're at the action phase and we're fired

Carl King (31:14.922)
Yes.

Carl King (31:21.119)
Yes.

Carl King (31:27.48)
Yes.

Carl King (31:36.82)
Yes.

Layci (31:39.084)
And we don't give our people any space to go through the act, the other phases to be ready to take action. We just expect them to be a cogs. Like that's how, when they feel like they're cogs in a machine or like they are mushrooms. Have you heard that one? Yeah. Feed you full of poop and keep you in the dark.

Carl King (31:57.043)
Mm -hmm. No, I haven't. What is

Carl King (32:02.603)
wow, my gosh, I'm gonna use that. I hope you don't mind. Yes, that is, is, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Layci (32:05.551)
Do it, do it, yes. So yeah, they don't want to be cogs in the machine. They don't want to be mushrooms. But when we just come in and drop things on them and it's like dropped through the floor and it's like came out of nowhere and then we get impatient because they're not ready to move. We're the ones being ridiculous. Yeah.

Carl King (32:15.825)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Carl King (32:26.399)
Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Yeah. I've heard that as like seagull leadership, right? You come in, fly in, poop over everybody and then fly out again and they're left to clean up,

Layci (32:31.373)
Yeah.

Layci (32:35.264)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And they're just totally not there. And we don't. Yeah. That just so much truth and getting people ready to like, they're excited to get on that journey, right? They're packing their suitcase. We got to give them time to know what to put in the suitcase, to go buy a suitcase, to understand if they're going to need sunblock or a parka, right? So understanding that,

Carl King (32:49.567)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Carl King (32:54.857)
Yeah,

Layci (33:03.264)
And it really is the go slow to go fast. So when we start at that action phase, it feels fast in the moment and like, we're productive. We're doing, doing, doing. But then you look at it like the long game. If you're playing chess, you're actually going to spend so much more time cleaning up all the messes and the relational messes. And you're probably going to have some people that actually walk that were key players. If you haven't brought them along in the process.

Carl King (33:05.685)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, it is.

Carl King (33:31.135)
Yeah.

Layci (33:31.584)
Absolutely. my gosh, such valuable work that you do, Carl, such important work. If we have listeners that want to find you, as we're wrapping up our time, you've shared so many pieces of gold, those gold nuggets in there, pull those out, everybody. If they want more, if they want more of what you do, what you offer, want to connect with you, we will drop everything in the show notes, but where, just generally, where do they go to find you? What's the best communication channel for

Carl King (33:36.405)
Thank

Carl King (34:00.747)
You know, the best communication channel, uh, is Instagram. Um, you know, I'm, I'm on there and I, you know, I just went through providing kind of a 30 day challenge for people and, and I've been uploading kind of videos and lives and, and it's, think you're just kind of helping people to go through a process of getting rid of things. think sometimes when we are considering change, um, there's this quote that talks about,

Layci (34:04.759)
Okay.

Carl King (34:30.717)
Everybody expects change everybody knows change is gonna happen like none of us are surprised but it's the transitions that are the most crucial and the the danger points and so helping people to minimize the distractions and minimize the the potential pitfalls when they're in a period of transition is something that I I feel like I'm You know uniquely qualified to help with so yeah, they can find me on Instagram

Layci (34:41.1)
Yes.

Layci (34:50.36)
Mm -hmm.

think they just

Layci (34:58.936)
Okay.

Carl King (34:59.339)
Carl E. King and if they want to look me up online it's mychorachange

Layci (35:05.358)
Okay. Well, we will drop all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for leaping into this conversation. Thank you for your vulnerability. We know we ask those personal things and we just get right in there and your willingness to share with me a stranger until, you know, 35 minutes ago. I just really, really appreciate that so much. And you've got just so much to offer everyone. Go find Carl, follow him on Instagram, make that connection.

Carl King (35:15.485)
Absolutely.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Layci (35:35.69)
I know I certainly am. And until next time listeners, go manage like a leader.