Unlocking Conflict Resolution, feat. Amy Armstrong from The Center for Family Resolution

TLC 11.20.24 Amy Armstrong fcp
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Layci: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] Hello friends and welcome back to Confessions of a Terrible Leader. I'm your host and former terrible leader, Layci Nelson. And today I am introducing Amy Armstrong, who is a conflict resolution specialist and entrepreneur. And I will tell you , she told me before we hit record, she likes the juice.

Layci: She likes to get into what's happening and the really juicy details that. where the gold is. So, Amy, I couldn't be more welcome you to the show. Good morning. Uh,

Amy: thank you, Layci. I just love your title. I love confessing because I'm so. Over the mistakes I've made in the past, and it's great to get to talk to people on a real level and yeah, see what we come up with.

Layci: Yeah, fantastic. Well, goodness, for those that are, that are [00:02:00] listening and they hear conflict resolution specialist, I think we make up all kinds of narratives in our head about what that means. So I'm going to go to the source. What does it entail to be a conflict resolution specialist? What does that even mean?

Amy: Sure. So it means that I work with folks in really heated disputes. It could be financial matters. It could be who's invited for Thanksgiving dinner. It could be a custody battle. I actually have a lot of clients. that have court orders to work with me because they've taken an intense conflict to court and the court knows there's better ways to resolve it than in litigation and so becoming a conflict resolution specialist means I had to do a lot of personal work on tolerating those intense emotions and also really self managing [00:03:00] because I went through such a nasty divorce that about did me in that I got to, springboard back from my own crisis and then figure out how to help other people prevent Some of the same situations that I got in.

Layci: it sounds like you became what you needed during that time.

Amy: So well said. That's exactly it. What took me 15 years is really about an 18 month process. And I just learned everything by doing it wrong, did it the hard way. And honestly, I don't beat myself up for that because I really wanted to be a kind, generous, Person, I just did not learn how to set boundaries in keeping with my values.

Amy: was so hard, so hard for me to learn. And now it's easy because I'm good at it now.

Layci: Right. But when you're not good at it, boundaries, I have many clients that we work with that are in leadership roles and are [00:04:00] figuring out oftentimes for the first time How to set boundaries with employees.

Layci: And I can imagine it's only more complicated with the person that you thought you were going to be spending the rest of your life with.

Amy: The higher the emotions, the higher the difficulty.

Layci: So the title of entrepreneur, how does entrepreneur play into this role? I started a

Amy: company to make money and serve.

Amy: serve folks who are in high conflict. By training, I am a social worker and decided to start my own company because no one was doing what I thought needed to be done. There was nobody for me to work for. I crafted myself a model, a process whereby I could take unruly clients off the hands of attorneys, attorneys.

Amy: Who were done with them, who are sick of them and we've [00:05:00] built, I say we, because I have several colleagues working with me now and we've really built a process where we're making a big dent in domestic court, in family court, where people are using coaching to help them get through their court process.

Amy: So I'm an entrepreneur because I have taken so many risks. I have put my career on the line many times standing up for what I believe, not knowing if other people were going to see me as a credible resource. And so I'm thrilled to say that we've grown. We actually just doubled our practice a couple of months ago and I'm just Basically speaking all over the country about how we can do better with high conflict by setting boundaries and being authentic and still being really kind hearted, gentle preachers at the same [00:06:00] time.

Layci: Yeah. When you're speaking, who, who's your primary audience? Who are you talking to?

Amy: So I'm often talking to attorneys, judges, mental health professionals, usually to professionals. And I like speaking to folks that are in the heat of conflict themselves. I do that mostly on tick tock and my professional speaking is almost always to other professionals who are looking to improve their processes for resolving conflict in court battles.

Layci: Oh, man. Can you paint a picture for us? What does it look like? Like, why are these professionals so drawn to your work? What does it look like for them? I'm imagining just high intense emotion. I mean, if they're to the point where they're like, Amy, I am done. I am referring them to you.

Layci: Paint that for us. What does that look like?

Layci: I really appreciate your question, because

Amy: what happens [00:07:00] is professionals believe, that because we know something, we can just tell someone what they need to do, and they're gonna do it, and it doesn't work that way. No, it does not. Almost never like the least effective way to get people to change is to tell them to change,

Layci: right?

Amy: And so these high level professionals are telling their clients what to do, and it's not working. So the professionals are getting burned out. The clients are running out of money, and the clock is ticking. In Ohio, we have a Supreme Court guideline that these cases have to be resolved in a certain amount of time.

Amy: Thank you. And so the clock is ticking, the pressure's on everyone, and people are getting worse, not better. So the categories of attorneys that tend to refer to me are either too frustrated themselves working with that client, Or the client's money's running out and they want to get to the finish line.

Amy: Right. So what we're doing is really [00:08:00] using coaching to support the legal process to help people get to the root of the problem quickly, efficiently, and start standing up for what they are willing and able to do rather than fighting against what they can't do. And that's really what a boundary is. Is making that shift to what we're willing and able to try, other than just criticizing, complaining, blaming, assuming negative intent of other people.

Layci: Do you have, of course, protecting the anonymity of your clients, but give us a story of a person that you have walked through that just really highlights and demonstrates all of these things that you've been talking about, so we can really highlight for our listeners, oh my gosh, I see myself in this.

Layci: Bring that to life for us.

Amy: I appreciate that. I do. I have stories every day and one that comes to mind. Is a mom and dad who [00:09:00] were having trouble in their marriage. So , they weren't feeling really close when this happened, but dad over drank dad made comments. To mom that really felt aggressive and were very aggressive.

Amy: Mom was actually trying to get away from dad physically. She was trying to run out of the bedroom and he was grabbing at her and she filed in court to have a protection order and asked to start the process of ending the marriage. And this dad, this husband was so Scared that his reputation was at stake, that he was being seen as this aggressive drunk when he just knew that he was frustrated with a lot of things going on with mom and they were actually court ordered to do some co parent coaching with me and Mom was so opposed to it because she thought he was just trying to get at her and we were able in [00:10:00] one session to identify some very tangible goals that mom was protecting her nervous system.

Amy: She didn't want to be scared anymore. Right. Dad was trying to protect his reputation and especially didn't want to lose his connection with his teenage children. by identifying those goals without judgment. We were able in one session to start to make some preliminary action steps that they were each willing and able to take To achieve their goal of what they needed to protect without Undermining what the other parent wanted to protect and so it was really fascinating to watch them own their own Needs and issues and then for me as the specialist in the middle I was able to be that person they could each talk to and really feel seen and heard you Because as soon as they were getting it that I was validating their needs and what they wanted to protect, they were much more likely to calm down and start to be able to [00:11:00] get back in their bodies, get back into their good thinking, and come up with some preliminary ideas of how that dad could spend a little time with the kids.

Amy: And how that mom could still feel protected and not feel like he was going to come at her. So it was scary. It was really scary for both of them.

Layci: Yeah.

Amy: And fortunately to me, I just saw them as humans.

Layci: Yeah.

Amy: I really had no problem not judging them and just seeing that they both had

Layci: very legitimate needs to protect.

Layci: Clearly the work you're doing is central nervous system regulation is so vital. we do a lot of work in that space with our clients as well. different setting, but , same wiring and us as people and understanding that oftentimes the source of conflict is really an unmet need.

Layci: Right. Like always is. Yeah. And getting to the core of what that need is can be so powerful. And when we're, moving through these spaces, Tell me if you feel the same way. Does it feel like, of course it does, you just told me that at the beginning. We're kind of at the cutting [00:12:00] edge of what's happening with the understanding.

Layci: And so many people that we would assume, Oh, you would have come across this information, have never heard anything like this before. And it really is life changing for them when they can start to unpack and understand themselves at a different level like that.

Amy: We all feel it. We all feel conflict. We all feel that awful feeling of feeling defensive.

Amy: Yes. But connecting that to specific skills is often hard to come by. Right.

Layci: Yes, it absolutely is. What do you think we need to do as professionals that are both working with other professionals and wanting to really continue this movement to help people understand themselves at this central nervous system level, to realize nothing can happen until you've reactivated your frontal cortex, until you can get back to yourself and Get to the core [00:13:00] of why you're feeling so defensive or so scared or whatever it is

Layci: How do we further this work speaking is a good start, but man, there's got to be more of us out there Where do we find each other? We

Amy: do our own good work and one of the reasons I never had good boundaries growing up is no one modeled good Boundaries for me the women in my life that had boundaries were total bitches and I was like, well, that's not me You You know, I cared about people and so I just sort of wrote it off like I can't do this.

Amy: So even as professionals, we can say out loud, Give me a minute. I'm having a reaction. I want to get back in my good thinking space. give me a second before I answer. We can say, I'm going to need a minute. We can say, I think a good walk will help me come up with an answer for you. And just help people see that it is normal that we go in and out of good critical thinking when our nervous system gets [00:14:00] activated either too high or when our nervous system shuts down.

Amy: I mean, I would shut down going through my whole divorce. I was so scared. I had a pleasant look on my face. Everybody thought I was Fine. I wasn't fine. I wasn't even there. And so even though I did fine as a professional, I wasn't doing fine as a human because I wasn't in touch with what was really happening with me.

Amy: So definitely doing our own good work. I actually run a coach development program for people who want to do this personal work and professional work, which is required for the highest standard of coaches. Yes. And we're just always looking at what's our commitment to self care, what habits are keeping us present with our clients rather than jumping into our judgments and letting those judgments run off with us.

Layci: Right. Absolutely. It has to start with you or me, whoever the person is, , in that seat. It has to start. With ourselves. No, we [00:15:00] cannot. And , if we are not doing our own work in those areas consistently, it becomes a practice, right? Like it's not just do it's not like you do the work and you're done and you move on to the next project.

Layci: So you're never done. It's a practice.

Layci: You have to be active in your practice to be able to maintain the. Capacity to sit with other people and help them find their own practice. So well said.

Layci: What are the earmarks of someone that does have an active practice in contrast to someone who thinks they're doing okay? They don't know how not okay they're doing. I'm imagining that's kind of where you were in the free state.

Amy: Very much so. Yeah. I really

Layci: didn't know what I didn't know. Yeah. Yeah.

Layci: How did you become aware? It's kind of a funny story. I was feeling really

Amy: desperate. My children's dad was going to be taking them on a trip and leaving [00:16:00] me home

Layci: with just me, myself and I, and I didn't

Layci: have the good sense to know to enjoy that time.

Amy: Because I was so over identified as a mom that I didn't have a solid identity. Just me. And so I thought, well, I'm going to book a trip at the same time. So I found the cheapest flight I could find a Florida. I love Florida. And later that day, an email popped in my inbox about a retreat that one of my favorite authors was leaving.

Amy: And of course, no surprise. It was in the location very near to where I was flying in. And so I go to this spiritual retreat and I'm thinking, Oh, I'm just going to sit in the back row and take notes. And I sort of asked the teacher a question, you know, for a friend. And he's like, do you want to just tell me what's going on?

Amy: And he just didn't buy it. He just didn't buy my superficial, look how put together I am persona. And he just kept. Very kindly, very gently, but very clearly persevering to say, [00:17:00] I don't believe you. Like this is not your story. And I kept trying to say nice things about my husband. He's like, we're not here to talk about your husband.

Amy: What's going on with you? And sure enough, the tears came and I started connecting with people in the room and I started practicing. What would it be like to just tell the truth? And I love claiming now that I am a radical truth teller, but I did not know how to do that until a kind person was able to say, what are you doing?

Amy: You're not making a sale here. You're not even believable what you're trying to portray. And I really got it. I really got the message and joined a group at that point where we literally practice telling the truth and calling each other out. As you know, how do you know when you're authentic and practicing?

Amy: And I fortunately had some good friends that were totally on board and I Love it now when I run into people that knew me [00:18:00] years and years ago and they're like what happened to you Because the vibe is so different. I feel different. I'm present now where it's I was a nice person, but wasn't really letting people in because

Amy: I wasn't even letting myself in.

Layci: How long did it take you to know yourself? I'm assuming, tell me if I'm wrong. You didn't even really know you. You

Amy: know what's interesting, Layci, is

Amy: my mom, when I was little, she would say things that kind of sounded like you're being a little fake. And I remember being so sad about that, because I really didn't know what she was talking about and she didn't really know how to talk to me about it.

Amy: But my whole life flashed before me, realizing that my whole life I had just kind of orchestrated my outer world without a purpose. Addressing my inner world. So I

Amy: would say it really took me a good

Amy: several years, four or five years

Amy: before my work became kind of going from being an educator to being a coach [00:19:00] where I could really meet people in an authentic space because I didn't have access to my own authentic space. And so now I can look back and see that being a decent person, I mean, that's great, right?

Amy: But it would just was so surface and I have so much self compassion now for the years and years and years of physical pain, of emotional pain, sleeplessness, that if I had had a relationship with myself, I would have had some comfort, but I was looking for it on the outside. That's it. But it definitely took years.

Layci: Yeah. You had to stop being who you thought you were supposed to be and figure out who you actually were.

Amy: I know.

Layci: Ugh. I think a lot of us can relate. Yeah. Do you find men and women equally have this challenge? I do. And does it present differently? Like, talk to me a little bit about that. Because, I think in women, Being female, I'm like, oh yeah, we're societal pressures and whatnot, but men face their own as well.

Layci: [00:20:00] What does that look like for the different gendered experiences if you see any themes there?

Amy: I do, I do, because it's interesting. Men have a little harder time accessing their feelings. Oh,

Layci: yeah.

Amy: And don't give themselves permission to feel deeply. They feel like they need to be tough and strong and women have a real commitment to the collective experience, right?

Amy: So a lot of women can be in the catfight very competitive I see that a lot, but I also see a lot of women that are very much people pleasers and Biologically, we are social animals. We are meant to get along. We are meant to play well with others But there's nothing wrong or bad about using our, voice to try to get along and care about others.

Amy: It's just, just don't want to do it at the expense of ourselves. Right. So definitely, I see a lot of men that are paralyzed because they don't have a path to access their [00:21:00] feelings. And they feel like something's wrong with them if they speak up too much and something's wrong with them if they don't speak up enough.

Amy: So there's a lot of self doubt in the male world and there's a lot of lack of confidence in the female world where we don't know, are we trying to be supportive and support the collective? Or am I supposed to be bold and an individual and just using my voice to advocate for myself? So there's a lot of confusion out there and it's all

Layci: yes and.

Layci: Right. Right.

Layci: Tell people all the time. Stop shoulding all over yourself. I love that. You're telling yourself you should do this, you should do that. And oftentimes they're just trapped in this. Binary of choices of false binary of choices that they've created for themselves.

Amy: Love that wording.

Layci: Instead of learning how to hold the yes end or the both end exactly in conflict to experiences can be true at the same time.[00:22:00]

Layci: It's such a hard concept for people to be introduced to, but once they get it can change things. What are your reflections on that?

Amy: I actually have a real interesting approach. To helping people allow multiple perspectives. I joke that it's not really joking, but I say it like it's a joke that I don't allow the word compromise and I don't allow the words common ground because That tells people that you're supposed to be like this rather than having two separate perspectives, but holding them openly and lovingly.

Amy: And so I like to use some language when I'm coaching people to say, okay, your perspective is here and your perspective is here. What do you want to do with this gap? Rather than saying you guys have to come up with a way to compromise or you have to just look at your common goals. Because that actually diminishes our sense of validation.

Layci: Mm hmm.

Amy: Common ground often says, I have to leave [00:23:00] out half of my narrative. It might be really important to me. So I say, you keep your perspective and allow this person to keep their perspective and let's figure out what we want to do in this gap. Do we want to go our separate ways?

Layci: Right.

Amy: Do we want to look at options that support both of our perspectives?

Amy: Do we want to talk more for understanding or, is there something that you want to experiment with on the other side? Right. I love how you use the word false binary. Let's not create a binary that doesn't need to be there. Let's consider whatever is really going to get our needs met.

Layci: Right.

Layci: I love that. My goodness, so much wisdom. I think I could talk to you all day. Thank you. I love this so much.

Layci: But before I let you off the hook, I want to invite you into the confessional to tell your story. I

Amy: love it.

Layci: Yes. Please tell us [00:24:00] that painful lesson that you came here to share your confession. And how it's shaped how you lead today.

Amy: So Layci, I am, unlike a lot of women, I am good with receiving support. I actually used to be kind of a dependent in my first life.

Amy: And so when I hire someone to help me with my business, that has the expertise. Even if it's expensive, , they can do this or that for me. My biggest mistakes have been to just let them take it and run with it and let go of my part of it. And so I've hired people to do things for me and I haven't kept an eye on what they're doing.

Amy: And I have expected them to do it all rather than, and I'm a little bit of a leaper and make pretty quick decisions and very high energy. If something feels right to me, I'm like, let's go. Let's go. I relate. It's great in a [00:25:00] lot of instances. I have spent so much money saying yes to programs, to experts without saying, what is this going to look like?

Layci: So even

Amy: last night, I sent an email to someone that I had paid several thousand dollars to, and I said, I'm waiting for us to come up with a collaborative plan of how this is going to work. But I just hired him and paid him before. I said, well, let's lay this out. What is my responsibility? What is your responsibility?

Amy: What's our timeline? What are our milestones? How will we know when it's working? I just said, Oh, you're cool. You work with a lot of cool people. Let's go. Here's my money. Yes. I like to collaborate. I don't mind spending money on people that can help me, but I am reformed and that my yes, it's still a yes, but it's, Longer.

Amy: It's a process of [00:26:00] saying yes, where we lay out, what is it going to look like for us to work with? How are we going to know when we're successful rather than just, Oh, you seem to know what you're doing. Let's go.

Layci: Oh my

Amy: God. That's a big one for me.

Layci: Girl, I have made that mistake and I have made it more than one time.

Amy: Learn. We're going to learn this.

Layci: Especially as a busy business owner, right?

Amy: I'm like, you do it. You do it. Here's my money. You do it.

Layci: I'm overwhelmed. That's not in my wheelhouse. That's not in my zone of genius. Like take it and run. And then. It doesn't turn out at all. I, I call it lighting money on fire, right?

Layci: Like I have lit money on fire

Amy: down the drain

Layci: many times.

Amy: We're not doing that anymore.

Layci: No, no. Part of what has helped is a being able to put words around it and say, I'm doing this and just like yourself going, where did it, what it let's underline this. So doing that, using our practice of self awareness and figuring out what's going on and then giving my team permission.

Layci: Yeah. To say, [00:27:00] Hey, did you think this through? I've asked them to ask me the hard questions, right? Like, please, if I'm putting an idea out there or a next step in our planning process, or I'm talking about bringing somebody onto the team, pull on my reins, please, not only do you have permission, I need you to do it.

Layci: It's like an expectation and opening that door in the power dynamic for them to say, Wait, you told us to check you on this. Have you thought about this? Have you thought about that?

Amy: Very good.

Layci: Game changer for me in how to stop lighting money on fire and going into things without clarity of expectation like you're talking about.

Amy: So good.

Layci: Ah, well, oh my gosh, such a valuable piece. So, so tell me, how has it shaped the way that you do things now? Yes, we got to stop doing it, but what are you actively doing? , what is your practice to not do that anymore?

Amy: I do have someone who works with me [00:28:00] that has really good judgment.

Amy: She knows me well. I have started practicing saying it out loud to her first, something that I'm thinking so that at least it's a first stopping point. Right. And then the second point is I have put myself on a budget. So instead of just saying, Oh, it'll be worth it. The return on investment is going to be great.

Amy: I know that I have a limit every quarter of how much I'm going to spend on professional support. And so now I have to say, you know what? First quarter 25 is spent. Yes. So I'm not hiring anybody else for first quarter 25 and I know what I'm gonna spend. Literally all of next year. I have that budgeted.

Amy: And so I'm not saying I wouldn't vary my budget, but I have a number, right? I've committed, I've committed. [00:29:00] Yes, I am willing and able to use real numbers. Yes. Rather than just this feels good or this is so exciting. I love to be excited. So let's just get excited. Right. Right. It's like I get to use numbers, not just energy to make decisions.

Layci: I love that. I love that. And some people need to go the other way. They need to learn to trust their intuition and their gut more. And then there's people like us that are like, Whoa, hold up. Um, yeah.

Amy: I actually hired some help this year with my numbers so that in an instant now I can check and see where I've

Layci: been and where I want to go number wise.

Layci: So I'm always going to be a leaper.

Amy: I still am going to say yes. to ideas, but I'm not gonna put the money in it until I've played it out.

Layci: Yes, we need, , the data , and the feeling and the excitement, all of it, to learn how to, [00:30:00] to hold it all and then move, right? Yeah, exactly.

Layci: Wonderful. Well, Amy, you've been such a wonderful guest. Where can people find you if they're like, her work's fascinating, I'd love to learn more. I need her. Where do

Amy: people find you? You can find me on TikTok if you're in a high conflict situation, especially with a co parent. And that is, my name, Amy Armstrong, conflict free.

Amy: Okay. And then you can find me on LinkedIn at Amy Armstrong coach and my website is the center for family resolution.

Layci: Excellent. Well, we will have all those links in the show notes so people can, know where to go to find you. I know myself, I'm going to be adding you just adding some followers to your, , ,

Amy: Beautiful.

Layci: Accounts. So thank you so much for your time today. You just brought in so many good things to think about. And I feel like we just started scratching the surface of the [00:31:00] possibility for further exploration on this. So.

Amy: Thank you for having me. I felt very welcome

Amy: and really enjoyed our time.

Layci: Excellent.

Layci: Well, you know how it goes, my friends. Until next time, go manage like a leader.

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