Q&A! Understanding Quiet Quitting: Root Causes and Solutions

TLC 11.13.24 Mary & Layci (pre descript)
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Mary Skop: [00:01:00] Hello, friends, and welcome back to Confessions of a Terrible Leader. I'm your friendly neighborhood podcast producer, Mary Skop, and I'm back here today with Lacey Nelson, founder of Transcend Leadership Collective. We are in full blown recovery mode from Halloween, not going to lie. Yes, we are. Welcome Laci, or shall I say, Jareth and folks, you're going to want to check out Laci's socials if you want to see some wild merging of Jareth from the labyrinth and our fearless leader.

Mary Skop: So yeah, check it out. , it's not like a kind of costume. It's full blown. Goblin King. Amazing.

Layci Nelson: I do not know how to do anything half assed. It is not in my DNA. It's true. And it extends to Halloween costumes. The Labyrinth is my favorite movie. It's my comfort movie.

Layci Nelson: It's like that warm blanket.

Mm hmm.

Layci Nelson: The fun part was, well, we get like eight bajillion trick or [00:02:00] treaters in our neighborhood. Like we literally had 2, 000 trick or treaters.

Mary Skop: I've seen it.

Layci Nelson: It's an insane thing. And by and large, the children had absolutely no idea who I was. I got asked if I was Beethoven.

Layci Nelson: I think that was my favorite. I love that too. Yeah. Are you Beethoven? I was like, nope, but they got an education. However, plenty of parents. That we're all about it. It was a great night. Awesome. I am now exhausted from hours of essentially cosplaying Jareth.

Mary Skop: did you do any like fancy juggling with your crystal ball or did you just do lots of pretend juggling?

Layci Nelson: Lots of pretend juggling with my crystal ball because it actually is glass. It was a gift actually from a client because of the analogy of You know, are you juggling rubber?

Layci Nelson: Are you juggling glass? Yes. that meant a lot to her and gifted me that at the end of our time together. And , immediately in my mind, I knew exactly that was clearly a sign from the Goblin King [00:03:00] that I was intended to play him.

Mary Skop: It's true. . I feel like this is right on all, the levels.

Mary Skop: Yeah, Halloween in your neighborhood truly is epic. I had the privilege of witnessing it a couple of years and, , I've never seen anything like it since. But, uh. It's bananas. Yeah. Well, Halloween can be delightful and spooky, but we're gonna talk about something that is on the spooky side of things today.

Mary Skop: So we're gonna. Let's do it. Keep going with spooky. Let's do it. All right, Lacey. Today, I want to talk about quiet quitting. Okay. Now, quiet quitting, obviously, it's not a new phenomenon, it's just the term that's a fairly new phenomenon in the past few years. It seems as though I was starting to see articles and research popping up around the time, slightly post lockdown, where, , everything went remote, , we've talked about this change the course of everything, but.

Mary Skop: Then I started seeing what is quiet quitting and what can we do about it? [00:04:00] I want you to give me your take on, quiet quitting, it's not new. No. Why now? Why the term now? And why is this coming out now? And what can we do about it? It's a problem.

Layci Nelson: So tell me. Yes. Absolutely. Quiet quitting is not new.

Layci Nelson: We just have a new word for it.

Layci Nelson: The concept, just in case there's any listeners who are not as familiar with it, the concept of quiet quitting is that people that work for you all of a sudden, or maybe you're just noticing it right now, stop doing anything that is above and beyond the absolute basics of their job description. They have capacity for a level performance, but maybe they're putting in like C D level stuff and they're just not contributing to their potential capacity.

Layci Nelson: you'll notice what's going on with this person? They're not as engaged as they used to be. Their quality of work isn't as high as it used to be their production just isn't as much like the innovation is going [00:05:00] down all the things, right?

Layci Nelson: You're like, what's going on with this person, but you can't exactly pinpoint it. There are some people that it's really the same side of the coin. They just started as a quiet quitter. We've heard the term. Lazy girl jobs, right? Yeah. Just enough to slide by.

Layci Nelson: Right. It's, all interconnected and related and the terminology. it's not only girls that can do that.

There's a piece of

Layci Nelson: me that doesn't like that term,

but it is,

regardless

Layci Nelson: of gender, people can do this. , we often like to first. point at the person and be like, Oh, something is wrong. What's wrong with kids these days kind of mentality. Totally. What is with this Gen Z? , now that, that I'm an elder, I'm like borderline X millennial, just right there, literally on the border.

Layci Nelson: it's all of us, , now the old people in the workplace looking, which we are sorry to break at your heart, but we are now transitioning into the older generation in the workplace. it can be dismissed as people that hear [00:06:00] about the term are like, they're just old people and us older people that are like, no, no, no.

Layci Nelson: Something's very different. This is not how it was. And I think we're right. It's not how it was, but I think we're looking in the wrong direction to figure out what's going on.

yeah.

Mary Skop: wHen we entered lockdown and we all went remote, Some of us stayed remote forever.

Mary Skop: Mm hmm. I am one of those people I was actually in grad school and I had a job with the university But obviously that came to a screeching halt with lockdown. Let's dive into a little bit of why something like that triggered this outpouring of basically just awareness of quiet quitting.

,

how does this happen? How does

Mary Skop: this get brought into the light?

Layci Nelson: Right. , first of all, there was just a huge shift as people in leadership, especially, , millennials, , oh, we don't care about butts in seats, but we don't realize how much we actually do care about butts in seats until the butts aren't in the seats and .

Layci Nelson: We don't have our eyes on the work and we can't see it getting done, right? Or we [00:07:00] see the outcome, the results of the work, but we don't see the process. So I think there was a little bit of a Awakening, really, of , well, first of all, , a ton of time is wasted in the office. I say wasted.

Layci Nelson: It's not wasted. , that's not a fair terminology. There's a ton of time in the office when people are together that is spent basically chit chatting. And innovation comes out of that. You are talking about work, but , you're first doing a lot of the niceties and catching up. And these things are, important for connection.

Layci Nelson: When we went remote, that all went away. And we all of a sudden were not talking to people unless it was for a very specific reason. that often played out in a relational disconnect. And I am going somewhere with this, bringing it back. So with that relational disconnect, what happens is we start to get more critical unless we have less empathy for each other.

Layci Nelson: [00:08:00] Because we are not engaged in one another's lives like we used to be. we don't know that this person's kid was up puking all night anymore. We don't know that someone has a grandmother who's, , means so much to them and now they're passing away and , they're in this painful process of letting somebody go.

Layci Nelson: We lose touch. We don't have the ins and outs unless it's very intentionally curated, which most of us had no idea how to nurture a remote team and to allow for those things to still happen. what happens is we start being hyper aware of deficit in performance. we've stopped seeing each other so much as people.

Layci Nelson: And each other more as outputs. Oh, sure. And are you getting what I need done? Even cross functionally, right? Or laterally.

Mm hmm.

Layci Nelson: Or you're waiting on this department or that department. You're mad at Nanette and accounting and she hasn't gotten you this report, but you don't know that [00:09:00] Nanette has been battling some .

Layci Nelson: sickness because you're not, connected. You're not even in the same department. Yeah. So all that to say, I think that quiet quitting became a term that people used to kind of blanket everything. Kind of like toxic. Oh, you know how toxic is just overused. Yes. I think we have an episode on that somewhere.

Layci Nelson: It's somewhere. Yeah. Toxic is just a completely abused term. It's overused. There is actually toxicity, but when we overuse the term, it loses its punch, right? It loses its relevance as to what it, what it actually means. Well, I think we've decided quiet quitting is anything we don't like when, when someone's performance is not up to par, they're, Oh, they're quiet

quitting.

Layci Nelson: because we've disconnected from them as people, we don't have the same level of empathy, the same level of, just. Humaneness, right? All of us being humans together. So I think that that definitely played into why is everyone all of a [00:10:00] sudden saying this? Well, cause they're just using it when they don't really go further, deeper into the problem.

Layci Nelson: It's like, I don't like their performance. they're slacking. They must be quiet quitting. Right. So

Layci Nelson: The things that contribute to that in office, because we talked about remote, how that can happen. Okay, so what I'm going to say, you can still apply all of the things I just said to in office if there's disconnection. And what exacerbates it and it will happen in office or remotely, it gets even worse and brings to the surface when there is lack of clarity from the leadership.

Layci Nelson: So when people are quiet quitting, that's another way of saying they're not meeting my expectations. And immediately I'm going to say, do they know your expectations? And. Often it's like, well, I hired him to do a job or there's a job description. And if that is your answer, bad news, uh, you're the problem.

Layci Nelson: So you are the reason they are quote quiet quitting. And , your leadership is the reason they're quiet [00:11:00] quitting because people need to know how to win and they need to understand what exactly it looks like to win and they need to have it delivered to them. In a way, I mean, ideally you're co creating the goals that they're working on every quarter.

Layci Nelson: They're in alignment with the larger annual goals of the organization. They are, held accountable and you are also held accountable transparently to what you're all collectively working on and individually working on. When those pieces are not in place. It is going to feel like people are quiet quitting because they're not meeting your expectations, but really you've quiet quit on them, right?

Layci Nelson: Like they don't even know.

Mary Skop: They don't even know. It's like, , I know I'm a staff accountant, right? And I know I have certain objectives, but beyond that also, I'm not a staff accountant. I just want to clarify. I am absolutely not a staff accountant in any way, shape or form. Neither am I.

Mary Skop: There's a reason we outsource certain things and that is one of them. But [00:12:00] anyway, yes, that was just the first thing that popped into my mind, unfortunately. But the thing is, like you said before, if all you have is a job description, and as a leader, you think, Oh, this is enough. Whoa. There's so much missing from that. , and I appreciate the perspective that you provide on. maybe they're not quiet quitting. Maybe , it's on you. You haven't provided the proper objectives for them. And like you said, hopefully shared objectives and the co creation of all of that, which is, absolutely essential for clarity.

Mary Skop: So you need more than a job description. You're ready to do.

Layci Nelson: Yeah. And Also looking at yourself as a leader and saying, am I enabling this quote unquote quiet quitting? Because if you are jumping in and saving the day all the time or reworking their work, yeah, you are contributing. What's going to happen is maybe they were engaged at one point and they were killing it and then they're not.

The

Layci Nelson: first thing to ask them is, Is everything okay in your world? [00:13:00] Yes. Approaching it with, are you okay? What's going on? If there genuinely is a drop off, and it's not just a perceived drop off because you're disconnected or your expectations aren't clear. Right. Asking them, how are you? What's happening in your world?

Layci Nelson: I've noticed a shift. That goes a really long way. And I often will preface it with, you don't need to tell me the nitty gritty in your life. And this isn't about you being in trouble. This is about me caring about you. And just whatever you want to talk, , whatever level you want to let me know something's happening.

Layci Nelson: I just want you to know I want to support you. If you're going through something I want to be here to help and support and encourage, right? that goes a really long way and back to the enabling thing. Let's say it's not that you're like, Oh, no, they actually, their life is day in, day out.

Layci Nelson: Nothing dramatic is going on. Well, back to the enabling is are you a pace setting leader? Meaning, are you a leader that's out front? Always doing the work. If they say, I don't know, I'm stuck on this. Oh, you, you take it back and you say, give it to me. I'll [00:14:00] I'll, I'll get it done. Or you swoop in and you save them.

Layci Nelson: If things are getting too close to the deadline and you don't let the pieces fall where they're going to fall. That is really hard to do because there is typically a cost associated with it. And sometimes it's even like bonuses, depending on where you fall in the organization. But if you are. Going to truly be empowering your team.

Layci Nelson: You cannot be swooping in all the time because they will back to the quiet quitting, eventually disengage because they know they don't have to do it because you're going to do it, or they used to do it all the time, but you were not good about feedback and redirection and checking in

Mary Skop: and

Layci Nelson: saying, Hey, this isn't exactly what I was looking for Could you make these? Changes and then bring it back and let me see it again. You just said, Oh, thanks. Good enough. You didn't want to make him feel bad. So you took their work and reworked it. Well, they notice they're gonna know when you've [00:15:00] reworked their work. Totally. Yes. you've created this cycle or this pattern where they're like, why would I try?

Layci Nelson: Right?

Mary Skop: Listen, why even bother? I just know that they're just gonna do whatever they want with it. So There's so many different versions of quiet quitting.

Layci Nelson: So many, so many. really the takeaway is look at yourself first as a leader. Are you checking in with people and asking them what's really going on in their life?

Layci Nelson: Are you making time and opportunity for that human connection that allows us to Brene Brown, it's really hard to hate up close. Yeah. Are we doing that? Are we making that happen on a consistent basis? And are we setting environments in our team for that to happen with each other as well?

Layci Nelson: Have we set crystal clear expectations outside of the job description? That doesn't cut it, right? You have to also be talking, , everyone should know if they did a good job or not at the end of the day. And if they can't answer that question with the same answer that you have, you've got to disconnect there.[00:16:00]

Layci Nelson: Yeah. So. really getting concrete? Are you setting up accountability? Are you also accountable to them? Are you transparent? Are they understanding that because you could probably look to them if they're perceiving you've quiet quit, there's no way they're gonna work harder than you are. Yeah. Why would they?

Mary Skop: . and people know, Oh my gosh, like people can sense these things if they see boss is super disengaged. So I'm just going to kind of do the same.

Layci Nelson: Yep. I'm going to check out a little bit, right? Yeah. . If you are going through something hard, you don't have to share with them. Maybe your marriage is falling apart, right? you're likely not going to be like, Hey, let me lead with my marriage is falling apart.

Layci Nelson: So I'm a hot mess. Right. But you, you can say at a surface level, I have a lot happening in my life right now, outside of here. Yep. I don't really want to go into the details of it, but I do realize that it's impacting my responsiveness or my My work capacity right now is smaller than it has been, or [00:17:00] usually is.

Layci Nelson: I want to acknowledge that up front. And also I need to know when it's impacting you negatively. you will be shocked because likely, your team will rally around you. And instead of disconnecting, they're going to actually work harder. Because you let them know. If you don't say anything, they're going to make up their own narratives.

Layci Nelson: They're going to think you're looking for another job. If you're the owner, they're going to be like, Oh, they're checking out or maybe they're trying to sell the business. They're going to make up a million stories. And likely none of them are going to be accurate. Right? look at yourself.

Layci Nelson: What messages are you unintentionally sending? Where are you contributing to this disconnect? And then if you have course corrected for all of those things,

Mm hmm.

Layci Nelson: And given it a little bit of time, you've done the check in. You now have clear ways to win for every single person that reports to you.

Layci Nelson: They understand you've done all the work and they're still quiet quitting. Well, that's when you can start setting , some Performance improvement plans, to put it in technical terms. . But when we [00:18:00] jump to the, to the pit, without doing that work first, it only breeds more disconsent within the organization, within the team, and it doesn't get to the root of the issue.

Mary Skop: Sure.

Layci Nelson: You're just putting a band aid on something, and Getting rid of a quote unquote, lazy or trouble. You know, this employee is lazy. This employee doesn't care. This employee's trouble. That is most often not what's actually going on. Does it happen sometimes? Yeah. Oh, sure. You know, I don't live in fantasy land.

Layci Nelson: Right. There are people that just are not the right fit for the organization. You do not have alignment with core values, which is essentially what it will come down to.

Sure.

Layci Nelson: And there are times where you have to make that hard call. . Most of the time though, if you do those other things first, the issue is resolved at the root.

Layci Nelson: Yeah. And you keep the person and they're happier and you're happier. That's my take on quiet quitting. That was a lot of talking.

Mary Skop: You brought up a lot of things that I hadn't really thought about in terms of examining company [00:19:00] culture, you know. So again, many different versions of quiet quitting.

Mary Skop: I think actually what I'm going to do is compile some of those talking points about kind of a punch list of, do you think your employees are quiet? Quitting go through this. And of course, obviously nothing is. A sure fix, but just a free reference , a quick examining of, okay, are these things in place?

Mary Skop: How can I get the team to rally and figure things out? so we'll provide that as a free resource. A little

Layci Nelson: diagnostic.

Mary Skop: Yes. A little diagnostic. . We'll provide that free resource for all of you lovely listeners. Laci, let's go continue to recover from Halloween. Cheers to that. . Yes, the coffee.

Mary Skop: Yes, coffee, and it's Friday, so thank goodness for small things. Yes. Friends, thanks so much for tuning in. Thanks for listening. Laci, thank you for stepping out of your Goblin King persona and sharing some knowledge with us. Yes, yes. Some of your wisdom on quiet quitting. I don't think that's how Jareth [00:20:00] managed his goblins,

Mary Skop: The bog of eternal stench. Yeah, exactly. Right.

Mary Skop: Eternal stench. So don't send your employees. Do not send your employees to the bog of eternal stench. There's better ways to don't be Jared.

Layci Nelson: Until next time, friends go manage like a leader.

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