Transforming Mental Health Advocacy, feat. Kathleen Donaldson, creator of the Calm and Collected Toolkit and founder of Kathleen Donaldson Consulting

Layci Nelson (00:01.368)
Hello friends and welcome back to Confessions of a Terrible Leader. And I'm your host and former terrible leader, recovering terrible leader, Lacey Nelson. I am so excited today for this episode. I know I say that a lot and I realized I say that a lot because it's true and I genuinely love getting to interview all of these amazing people that.

agree to come on our podcast and share their wins and they're so brave to share their losses and the things that they have learned. All that to say, boy, do we have an amazing story for you today. I would love to introduce you to none other than the Kathleen Donaldson. Kathleen, welcome to the show.

Kathleen Donaldson (00:50.377)
Thank you, thank you so much for having me.

Layci Nelson (00:53.144)
So I'm gonna tell the people a little bit about your background and what you have just been part of this groundbreaking work that in full transparency to our listeners, Kathleen has done some work with us at The Collective and she also has done some work for us. Like we have paid her to go through our curriculums and, or one of our curriculums and to upgrade it to be on the cutting edge of

understanding basically our central nervous system and how to support our own mental health and the mental health of others. And she is the founder of a really innovative program called the Trusted Adult Program. Did I get that right? And also she is the co-creator of the Calm and Connected Toolkit.

All of these amazing things, really connecting, helping people learn how to connect to the young adults in their lives, but also how to connect to the, everything she teaches is so applicable. Kathleen, I'm gonna get it wrong. You tell us in your words, what is this all about?

Kathleen Donaldson (02:14.127)
Okay, well I'm gonna take it back a little bit here to tell you a little bit about how this came to be because I think it'll give some context so for me personally when I was 16 I started getting really bad panic attacks and my experience was that Most of the people around me did not know how to support me or just talk about mental health. I Understand that that was a while ago now

And unfortunately, a lot of that still hasn't changed. Mental health is still very, very stigmatized. And so how I got into this work was really going through my own journey and having to go to doctors, therapy, all of this to figure out how do I even navigate this thing that's really scary. if anyone's ever had a panic attack, it's very...

Layci Nelson (03:03.694)
Mm-hmm.

Kathleen Donaldson (03:08.479)
Somatic right it's in your body. You feel all the symptoms. It's all-encompassing So it was really scary for me to navigate and you know, I wasn't really able to engage in life I would always leave things early and not be able to complete classes and things like that. So fast forward I ended up moving from Seattle to Portland when I was 17. I started college early

Layci Nelson (03:13.678)
Yes.

Kathleen Donaldson (03:35.647)
and I was getting my degree in criminal justice and I took an abnormal psychology class. And so we learn about personality disorders, but you also learn about the basics of like depression, anxiety, what's happening in the brain, the neuroscience. And I was like,

Layci Nelson (03:47.107)
Yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (03:51.771)
So this is like pretty easy to understand, but why are we not talking about it? Like, and I went home because at the time I had like four roommates, which you do in college. And I was telling all of them about it. And I was like, why do we not talk about this? And my roommate to this day, we're still friends, will tell you like this business blossomed from that moment where you're sitting in our living room and telling us like, this is ridiculous that we don't have these conversations.

Layci Nelson (04:00.802)
Yes.

Layci Nelson (04:18.139)
Yes! my gosh.

Kathleen Donaldson (04:20.031)
So that's kind of how it came to be. I mean, fast forward, I got my criminal justice degree, but then I got a degree in psychology. And I started to go into the field and my first internship was this organization that did conversations around mental health. And I was hired to evaluate the program. And the hard thing was I actually

once I evaluated it, saw that it was super harmful. That with talking about mental health without trust, without connection, but also without additional resources was like providing this sense of empathy, but then it was like, well, where do we go from there? Like they didn't have a direction. So I actually handed them the report and they took the two pages.

Layci Nelson (05:05.25)
Yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (05:14.079)
of the report that had good data out of 50 that said like this should be changed. They only gave the two good pages to their board and the rest they like threw away like I was let go from the position, all this stuff. So starting to also see the gaps in the mental health system. became a counselor.

Layci Nelson (05:19.287)
Yeah.

Layci Nelson (05:22.765)
off.

Layci Nelson (05:30.575)
man.

Kathleen Donaldson (05:40.391)
And it was the same thing where I was seeing like all of these people are struggling. There's this weird thing where people are also profiting off of this. And then the other side was I saw providers really struggling. Within my first six months at the counseling job, we had three clinicians commit suicide.

Layci Nelson (05:49.325)
Yeah.

Layci Nelson (05:53.471)
Mm-hmm.

Layci Nelson (06:02.036)
my gosh.

Kathleen Donaldson (06:02.803)
And I mean like clinicians as in trained therapists who, know, to be a therapist, you're training for like 10 years. They have all of the knowledge and all of the skills. So we saw that and then I saw how the clinic that I was working at responded was just like.

Layci Nelson (06:06.082)
Yeah.

Layci Nelson (06:09.665)
Right, right.

Layci Nelson (06:13.57)
Yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (06:21.577)
we'll just have a counselor come in like once a week for two weeks and then you guys should be good. And I was like, absolutely not. This is not okay. We can't like, we're a mental health organization. You can't, that's not how this works. So for me, it was seeing like one that this wasn't talked about, two that even on a systemic side, there were so many flaws and gaps in the system.

Layci Nelson (06:29.729)
Right.

Kathleen Donaldson (06:48.369)
And then when the pandemic hit, I was just seeing like the suicide rates go up, the depression rates go up, the anxiety rates go up. And my mentor, she's a clinical psychologist. And so I reached out to her and I was like, we got to do something. Like, I can't see this every day and just sit here and be like, it's fine. It's not okay. So we created this program. The curriculum itself is called the Calm and Connected Toolkit.

The training that came out of that is the Becoming a Trusted Adult training. So this training, we really teach people how to support themselves and create wellness for themselves, and in turn, how to support youth and other people in their lives. So that's kind of the background, like, of seeing the gaps in the system, seeing the stigma personally, and then seeing that, like, we really need community.

Layci Nelson (07:21.838)
Okay.

Layci Nelson (07:29.464)
Mm-hmm.

Layci Nelson (07:47.212)
Yeah. Okay. Let's pause for a second because what I am just, what is remarkable and stands out to me as well. mean, of course, all of this brilliance that you have and this passion that you have, but the fact that you turned it into action because so many of us sit and see the problems and we're, we experienced the gaps ourselves or somebody we love does.

Kathleen Donaldson (07:47.281)
especially now more than ever.

Layci Nelson (08:17.186)
but we don't take that step into action, right? So awareness, acceptance, and then action. We usually just sit in awareness forever and complain about it. So what was the catalyst or what tipped you over into action? Like there's a lot of people that have had similar experiences to yourself.

that don't take action. I know this is a hard question. Sometimes you can't read the label from inside the jar, but what is your self-assessment? I know you're a very self-aware person that made that difference where you're like, no, I'm not just comfortable with awareness and acceptance. Like I have to take action.

Kathleen Donaldson (09:05.151)
So a few things. I'm very intuitive, but this might be a little bit of a longer answer. to answer your question, so one of the things that happens when you grow up in a home where it's not necessarily emotionally safe is you get really good at monitoring what's going on. And so for me,

Layci Nelson (09:18.454)
We like those. We like long answers.

Layci Nelson (09:29.165)
Mm-hmm.

Kathleen Donaldson (09:33.523)
I had been in monitor mode for years. And so what happens is that you're really good at noticing patterns and things like that. But then you also start to be, for me, I started to get good at noticing how I reacted to that.

Layci Nelson (09:41.71)
Mm-hmm.

Kathleen Donaldson (09:51.847)
I was really intuitive, I was seeing the patterns and then honestly I didn't really have a choice because of my anxiety, I couldn't stay in those environments and watch the harm happen because it was just really, really hard. Like I very quickly got into a depression. I was having panic attacks all the time. I just couldn't really like...

Layci Nelson (10:12.824)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Kathleen Donaldson (10:18.931)
get myself to keep witnessing it and be like, I'm gonna sit on my hands and do nothing. Yeah, it was like, and a lot of it was because I had that experience as a kid, I was like, you know, when I started it, was really like businesses are, it was for myself. We create the things that we needed. I needed that.

Layci Nelson (10:25.132)
It was a survival response for you.

Layci Nelson (10:38.797)
Right.

Kathleen Donaldson (10:42.461)
And so it was like, was watching people go through exactly what I went through, if not a lot worse, right? Cause I was working with people in just really hard circumstances. And I was like, I just can't watch this happen. I can't watch the pattern happen over and over again, like it happened to me. When there's very, I don't want to say simple solutions, but there's...

Layci Nelson (10:48.142)
Mm-hmm.

Kathleen Donaldson (11:09.713)
ways to build community and build trust and build relationships where like it doesn't have to get to this end point that's really bad, right? There's a lot of prevention work that can be done where you're not getting to the point of talking about taking your life and things like that. So a lot of it just came from like, I guess I had the life experience that I was like, I can't tolerate this shit anymore.

Layci Nelson (11:19.522)
Right.

Layci Nelson (11:27.821)
Mm-hmm.

Layci Nelson (11:35.799)
Yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (11:36.399)
and I need to do something because I'm watching everyone relive my pattern.

Layci Nelson (11:42.558)
Mm. You're resonating deeply with me right now, as I'm currently this year in the throes of writing a book for the first time. And what am I writing about? I'm writing the leadership book I wish I would have had when I was young, coming up out of a trailer court and like not seeing myself in books about leadership at all. So I'm feeling this on a deep level. Yeah, we do create the thing that we

Kathleen Donaldson (11:58.706)
You

Kathleen Donaldson (12:05.855)
Mm.

Layci Nelson (12:11.714)
needed and what a beautiful way to like bring light into a dark, into darkness, right? There's different ways that can go, but to be able to reach back even. So do you feel like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm just, we're gonna go a little deep here. You can say, I'm not talking about that right now. Do you feel like this work, while it is...

Kathleen Donaldson (12:26.75)
Mm-hmm.

Layci Nelson (12:37.07)
healthfully focused on others and helping others. Do you feel like there's a piece of you and younger you that heals along the way as you're doing it, as you're reaching back to your or not?

Kathleen Donaldson (12:50.833)
So in a vulnerable way, I'll say the first few years of doing it. Yes. To the point that like, so when you start a business, it is like your baby, right? Like it's like a child. You got to take care of it. Right. Right. so when I started it, yes, it was very much like, this is what I didn't get and you all needed and you need to be, you know, good caretakers and things like that. however,

Layci Nelson (12:55.948)
Mm-hmm.

Layci Nelson (13:02.779)
yeah, yeah, it's my third child, yes.

Kathleen Donaldson (13:21.723)
I have you know, I've been in therapy since I was 12. I believe in therapy just as a constant in life As I started to heal my relationship with my parents as I started to I Guess just grow up a little bit Now it started to feel more separate of like I can teach concepts and skills there is part of me in it of like yes, I did experience it but in a

Layci Nelson (13:33.068)
Mm-hmm.

Kathleen Donaldson (13:49.959)
very healthy way, feel like I've depersonalized it. Because before what would happen is when someone like a client would reject me or like it wouldn't work, whatever, I would take it so incredibly personally because I was like, this is you're rejecting me. Like it wasn't even like you're rejecting the service. So I had to that was something I really had to grow out of of like,

Layci Nelson (13:52.846)
Mmm, mm-hmm.

Layci Nelson (14:02.168)
Right.

Layci Nelson (14:08.031)
Right?

Kathleen Donaldson (14:16.327)
Yes, at first when I initially started, like the first year and a half, I think I was really like, it was so personal. And now I've had to be like, this is a business. I had to work through a lot of stuff, which that's what businesses bring up.

Layci Nelson (14:29.848)
Goodness, right? Like so incredibly brings up all your stuff. You're like, I thought I worked through that. no, it's here. It's just in a different way now.

Kathleen Donaldson (14:37.955)
No. Right. And there's no way to hide it, especially I'll say once I started bringing on people and I had to be like, all of my shit is in the open now. Like I can't hide it when you're working alone. Yes.

Layci Nelson (14:47.074)
Yeah.

Layci Nelson (14:52.652)
Yes, yes. Okay, let's talk about you growing your team. Like, what has that experience been like for you and how has it exposed you in new ways?

Kathleen Donaldson (15:03.455)
Mmm.

Hoo, holy shit. So, it's been awesome. I have been really fortunate that I've found incredible people to work with.

Layci Nelson (15:08.014)
Ha

Kathleen Donaldson (15:20.703)
At first I did get, I got burned a few times because I was like, okay, I'm going to hire this person. had someone actually, so I recently moved to Chicago a year ago and I had someone lined up to take over for me in Washington state. We had, we were like all good up to the signing date of the contract. The signing date comes up. He doesn't sign.

Layci Nelson (15:23.992)
Yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (15:44.401)
And so like a week goes by and I'm like, Hey, like, you know, are you going to sign the contract? What's going on? Don't hear from him. Another week goes by and I'm like, Hey, if you don't take over now, like I need to shift a lot of things about my business. get an email from him on my birthday, like three weeks after the signing date saying I've actually decided to start my own business and sorry that I didn't tell you sooner.

Layci Nelson (15:55.768)
Yeah.

Layci Nelson (16:01.746)
man.

Kathleen Donaldson (16:12.983)
keep in mind, like I had been grooming him for like six months. Like I had been like, okay, we're like talking about these business ideas, all of this stuff. I'm moving. So in that way, that was such a learning process for me because I was like, I can't invest in people that are not sure. so that was my first experience since then I've been a lot more,

Layci Nelson (16:16.664)
Yeah.

Layci Nelson (16:28.182)
Yes.

Kathleen Donaldson (16:41.703)
aware of who I'm bringing on, doing my even research before I reach out to them, right? I'm like, who are you? What are you doing? What's your background? And now I just have an incredible team of, I have an executive assistant, and then I have people who contract for me, helping with sales, doing, facilitating trainings and things like that. So I felt really,

Layci Nelson (16:43.487)
Mm-hmm

Yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (17:07.837)
I said, I do believe that it is lucky, but I also believe that it's also that I'm a little bit more cautious about who I'm bringing on. And I spent some time. So the ways that it's brought out a lot of my own shit, which maybe I should save some of this for the confessional, yes. But I'll just say.

Layci Nelson (17:14.764)
Yeah. Yep.

Layci Nelson (17:23.864)
Mm-hmm.

Layci Nelson (17:28.312)
for the confession. Yes, yes, okay.

Kathleen Donaldson (17:36.221)
when you're like a solopreneur, right? It's just you. You can kind of do whatever the fuck you want, right? You can just be like, well, today I'm gonna start this offering or like, or next week, like I'm just gonna wing it when I speak at that conference and I'm gonna create a whole new offering and like offer to these people. So a big part of it has had to be that I have to be a lot more intentional, which has been really, really good.

Layci Nelson (17:39.446)
Right, right.

Yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (18:05.373)
and a lot more strategic about what I do. Also, I'm really fortunate because my executive assistant is incredible and she, more than me, will say like, I think you're gonna be at capacity if you do this. Like, I don't think this is a good idea. So I've had people who now can put me in check a little bit of being like, you're actually distracting yourself from your goal.

Layci Nelson (18:21.761)
Yes.

Yes.

Layci Nelson (18:29.452)
Yep.

Layci Nelson (18:34.454)
Yes.

Kathleen Donaldson (18:34.673)
Like this is what we need to do. This is where you are, which is way over here. What the fuck are you doing? And right, right, right. Which is like part of, you know, when you're doing it yourself, you are the visionary, right? So that's part of, think what a lot of entrepreneurs like is you like to be the visionary and come up with these ideas. And that's great. But that doesn't always like align with

Layci Nelson (18:40.556)
Right. Like don't say yes to that. What are you doing right now?

Layci Nelson (18:52.695)
Yes.

Layci Nelson (18:58.273)
Yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (19:03.613)
your business at the time or what you're doing.

Layci Nelson (19:05.582)
Correct. Yes, as someone who has multiple people on my team that pull on my reins, I completely relate to what you're saying right now. Yeah, because we want to do the fun and the new and the shiny and our brains are always making connections and seeing patterns and like, if we did this or we did that, and then we dilute our effectiveness because we're not focused in on the one.

Kathleen Donaldson (19:26.728)
Yeah.

Layci Nelson (19:31.052)
getting really solid, building our reputation in this thing that we want to be known for, because we can't be known for all the things all the time. Human brains don't work like that. Even if ours, it makes complete sense to us, it doesn't make sense to the people that we want to sell this service to. Yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (19:50.503)
Right. Yeah. And like, sometimes things are great add-ons. Sometimes things are like, okay, this is helpful. But what happens I think is like when you're, I was saying this to someone, someone set up a meeting with me the other day just to pitch me their business ideas, which I thought was great. But I was saying like, there's so much value in knowing your niche.

Layci Nelson (20:20.076)
Yes.

Kathleen Donaldson (20:20.305)
and being incredibly, incredibly good at what you do in that niche. And that's how you expand in other areas. It's not doing everything because that's what I used to do in the beginning where I was like, well, maybe I could do this or maybe I could do this and over here. And now it's like, no, I really can't. I can offer two main things, right? And then the more you add,

Layci Nelson (20:33.367)
Mm-hmm.

Layci Nelson (20:40.568)
Yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (20:47.101)
the more diluted it is. And yes, people cannot categorize you in their head. And it's confusing. It's confusing for consumers.

Layci Nelson (20:53.25)
Yeah. Yes. Yes. And man, marketing in and of itself is a whole thing, skillset. We just brought on a fraction, for the first time ever, a fractional CMO for us. And can I tell you, I tried literally a solid year of being like, I am gonna learn how to market. And what I learned...

All I learned was enough to know if I was bringing somebody on that actually knew their stuff, or if they were just bullshitting me. Like, I had enough context to kind of feel that out. It is, don't underestimate or disrespect. And I know you don't. The power of someone who knows what they're doing in marketing, because as much as what our different service offerings are an expertise, that is an expertise, right? Like, so much experience goes into it. So now I have.

Kathleen Donaldson (21:36.371)
No.

Kathleen Donaldson (21:46.131)
Yes.

Layci Nelson (21:49.598)
one more person telling me, stop doing all the things, which is good.

Kathleen Donaldson (21:51.903)
You

Kathleen Donaldson (21:56.087)
It's like slow down. I still think they're valuable. Like I would just say like I'll write down your ideas It might come back later It might be an additional thing that is valuable for a client that you're working with but maybe we're not posting publicly But we're like, hey, we could also add this on But yeah, it's really it's really valuable and I think what we realized to like in this growth process for me as I've been like

Layci Nelson (22:02.636)
Yes.

Layci Nelson (22:10.615)
Right.

Kathleen Donaldson (22:24.607)
hiring new people and expanding. The thing that so many people have said to me that I trust has been like, don't get distracted, right? And oftentimes those other things and other ideas that we wanna do while they might be energizing and great are a distraction from the primary goal that we're going towards. And that is why I'll just like props. I love the strategic planning that I did with you because...

It gave me such a clear direction on where I'm going, the bigger impact. And it's such a light for like when I have those moments of like, well, maybe I should do this. I'm like, no, let me come back. And I have my goals. I have my way to do it. Right. It's so incredibly helpful. And it really propels you forward in the direction you do want to go. So.

Layci Nelson (23:06.294)
Yeah. Yeah.

Layci Nelson (23:15.18)
Yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (23:20.095)
anyone who wants to do strategic planning. It was so incredibly helpful for me.

Layci Nelson (23:22.384)
my gosh. Well, thanks for that little plug. I'm glad that it was, that was helpful. It was actually like a rose out of the need when we were doing, cause we started out like our core original offering as always been Basecamp and or like the Lyft, right? The Lyft grew out of like, well, we need something for middle level.

Kathleen Donaldson (23:27.346)
you

Layci Nelson (23:47.446)
And so the lift was created or for that younger emerging leader that maybe doesn't have as many decades under their belt as someone in an executive seat. And so, although that's not always true, look at yourself, but how it developed was this consistent, when we would do 360s for our clients, there was almost always a consistent messaging with a lack of...

big lack of clarity for the team members because visionaries are great at holding it in their heads. We're not always so great at organizing it and making it accessible to the people that we want to have help us carry it out. so creating, taking a bunch of different models, looking at what works well for our clients, what worked well for in practice and experience best practices. That's how it was created, right? It was born out of this need to

have exactly like you said, like, hey, your people really need clarity. We also offer this, and this is a great way to get to that clarity. So, yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (24:57.699)
I want to say before the strategic planning because I had just brought on my executive assistant a few months prior and she was like I didn't really get it like you have all these offerings like and I would explain it and it just didn't translate it wasn't until we did the strategic planning that she was like I get it like so simple this is where my role fits into this and it was really helpful to think about for me

Layci Nelson (25:15.032)
Yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (25:24.467)
how to really delegate a role and not just tasks. Because before, I did have assistants who I just hired for projects who I would just delegate tasks to, and then they didn't get the bigger vision, and it always felt like a little bit of a disconnect. But after the strategic planning, I knew she's someone that is really going to be a bigger role in my business as it grows. She's also someone who has...

Layci Nelson (25:27.639)
Yes.

Layci Nelson (25:47.458)
Yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (25:50.591)
15 years of experience as an executive assistant. So she's not doing tasks. She wants to know the bigger vision. That wasn't an option, right? It was like, actually, what are we doing? Right. And she's like, like, why do you want to do this? And what's your goal? So that was so helpful for us to just get on the same page. And then moving forward, like we were, you know, we executed our Q3 goals within like a month.

Layci Nelson (25:56.695)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Why? What is this about? Yes.

Kathleen Donaldson (26:20.031)
right? Because it was like, we have so much clarity. These tasks are so doable. Like, it was so easy. So I think that was really helpful. Yeah, for us to all get on the same page and to know that as visionaries that we always we don't always translate our vision. Effectively is really important. And I have to remember that too, like, the things that feel so clear in my head do not always come out that way.

Layci Nelson (26:20.379)
my gosh. Yeah.

Layci Nelson (26:38.83)
Mm-hmm.

Layci Nelson (26:49.122)
Right.

Kathleen Donaldson (26:49.689)
And so we need this process quarterly, annually to make sure we're all on the same page. And it benefits us, like, you know, every one on one we go through it, right? It's a guiding force, yeah.

Layci Nelson (27:01.195)
Right, right. my gosh. Well, that was an unexpected endorsement. Thank you. This wasn't planned listeners. I wanna talk about now, rewinding to what the confessional time, someone who's had you that lights up when they talk about this stuff the way that you do, that has the passion and drive. I know, cause I am you, you are me.

Kathleen Donaldson (27:08.165)
Yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (27:15.839)
Mm-hmm.

Kathleen Donaldson (27:19.571)
Yes.

Layci Nelson (27:30.834)
we're all connected. I have a very strong feeling that you probably have made some pretty big mistakes along the way, shed some tears. So welcome to the confessional, Kathleen. What is your big mistake you would like to share with us today?

Kathleen Donaldson (27:39.167)
You

Kathleen Donaldson (27:43.071)
Woo.

Kathleen Donaldson (27:49.255)
Ooh, okay, so.

along the clarity aspect. I will say this is very like generational. So I'm a millennial, but I'm like closer to the Gen Z side of millennial. So my managers from like my first job at a grocery store to my counseling job, I had a lot of different jobs. We're all very micromanaging, right? So as millennials, we usually kind of go the other way where we're like,

Layci Nelson (28:12.942)
Mm.

Kathleen Donaldson (28:18.907)
let's be a little bit more relaxed. Like my motto, even since I've started working with my executive assistant has been like, nothing's urgent. Like, I promise you, it's not a big deal if we have to postpone this, whatever. Which in theory sounds good. However, translated, it didn't work so well. So

Layci Nelson (28:21.176)
Yeah.

Layci Nelson (28:35.672)
Right.

Layci Nelson (28:42.604)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (28:44.427)
Also, like my assistant is older than me. So she's like, what are you doing? So what this practically looked like was her asking like, okay, so what's the due date for this or like, when do you need it done or all of these things? And I wanted to be like relaxed and not give you know, details whenever like by the end of the month. And then of course, like our deliverables weren't getting met. And I thought I was being like, well, I'm giving her flexibility.

Layci Nelson (28:47.064)
Mm-hmm.

Layci Nelson (28:57.07)
Mm-hmm.

Layci Nelson (29:02.136)
Yeah.

Layci Nelson (29:09.389)
Yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (29:14.097)
I was not doing that at all. Yeah, right. Right. And so it was so like, it so funny. So the first few months I was so frustrated. So was like, what the fuck? Like, I hired her, she has all this experience. And then I was in the lift and I was like, holy shit. I actually, this is my, like, and I knew, I knew going into the lift.

Layci Nelson (29:16.3)
like the other bosses, I'm the cool boss.

Layci Nelson (29:32.856)
Yep.

Kathleen Donaldson (29:41.519)
My reasoning was like, always know that everything as a leader, but usually as a person, everything is about us. It is not about other people. Anything that we feel is usually a projection of ourselves. So I knew me being frustrated was like, somehow I am not translating this correctly for her to hear it. So I went into the lift knowing I needed those skills.

Layci Nelson (29:56.078)
Mm-hmm.

Kathleen Donaldson (30:09.631)
And I realized that like I was just kind of trying to be too cool and I was missing the point where I was like it actually is really helpful for people to have deadlines it's actually also really helpful for people to have a lot of clarity and To have some reasoning behind like this is why we need it by Friday and so

Layci Nelson (30:20.931)
Yes!

Layci Nelson (30:26.627)
Yep.

Layci Nelson (30:31.64)
Yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (30:35.389)
That is like what was a big shift for me. And I did that with my contractors too, where like, I mean, that showed in my first story of when I was trying to hire that guy. There was a lot of times where I just lacked boundaries and lacked assertiveness because I was trying to be like, it's fine. I'm not gonna be the micromanager boss when in, right, right, right. I'm like.

Layci Nelson (30:43.242)
Yes.

Layci Nelson (30:50.616)
Yeah.

You just swung way too far the other way. You're like, scope up for

Kathleen Donaldson (30:58.887)
you could just have this done in like a few weeks. And I'm like, I actually need it like Friday. And it's Monday. And I actually should say that. So that is like, I think the biggest learning curve I've had because I've seen it in multiple ways to like that translated for me to like pitching, where I would be like, we're flexible on prices. Absolutely not. I'm not flexible on prices. But I'd be like,

Layci Nelson (31:01.966)
Yeah.

Layci Nelson (31:07.863)
Yes.

Layci Nelson (31:20.611)
Yeah.

Kathleen Donaldson (31:27.411)
Well, if we need to fit with your budget and no, like certain times that can be helpful, but I think a lot of times I would like lowball myself, right? So a lot of it is the idea of being the chill manager is not really something that we need to play into.

Layci Nelson (31:38.06)
Yeah, yeah!

Layci Nelson (31:48.408)
doesn't usually serve our people very well.

Kathleen Donaldson (31:50.591)
No, and people like the directness and the clarity way more like I, it would be so weird for like, me to meet with a manager or client and then just be like, you could come train our staff whenever like I would be like, what the fuck like give me a date. Let's write, right. So I was like, one, we need clarity to

Layci Nelson (32:07.81)
Yeah, I'm trying to plan my life, come on.

Kathleen Donaldson (32:16.871)
it's actually important that we explain ourselves. And that's one of the things I talk about a lot with emotional intelligence is like, it's actually important to explain where you're coming from, to build empathy and for people to see, like it's so funny, cause people talk about intention versus impact, right? Which I think is valid, but also voicing your intention is actually a good thing.

Layci Nelson (32:27.672)
Mm-hmm.

Layci Nelson (32:43.886)
Mmm.

Kathleen Donaldson (32:44.147)
because I think people do need to see where you're coming from. But you can also acknowledge that your impact was way different, right? Right? I was like, and that caused harm and I need to repair this like my, my intention doesn't take away the harm that it was caught that was caused, but it can build a little bit of empathy knowing that like, I wasn't intentionally trying to like screw you over. I was just like,

Layci Nelson (32:50.146)
Right. This did not land as intended.

Yeah.

Layci Nelson (33:01.131)
Yes.

Layci Nelson (33:09.987)
Right.

Kathleen Donaldson (33:11.559)
trying to be the cool manager. And in reality, like that had a bad impact on me, my business, on you, all of this stuff, right? So it doesn't negate the impact, but I do think it's important to articulate so we can see where you're coming from.

Layci Nelson (33:28.302)
Yes. such good learning. Thank you for sharing that with us. And thank you for sharing, being willing to share like, this is where I screwed up. That's a vulnerable thing when we ask that. So much appreciated. So in some like final reflection, what would you want to leave with a listener that is maybe earlier on in their career of

Kathleen Donaldson (33:34.685)
Mm-hmm.

Layci Nelson (33:58.072)
figuring out like what kind of boss am I? What kind of leader do I even want to be? And they looked to you and said, Kathleen, how do I even start to like build the awareness in myself or to like figure this out? What is authentic leadership? What does that even mean for me? Being someone that dives into this at a very deep level, what advice would you have as like a good step one, maybe step two?

for people to get more aware of how they want to lead, the kind of impact they wanna have, and what their capacity is. That's a big question.

Kathleen Donaldson (34:39.133)
Ooh, that's a good one. So I think starting point would be look at the leaders that you've had in your life and think about like what made you feel safe? What did you like about them? What did you not like about them? And the ones that you didn't like, get curious as to why.

Layci Nelson (34:54.252)
Mm-hmm.

Layci Nelson (35:06.19)
Mmm.

Kathleen Donaldson (35:07.143)
because it's important to differentiate, is this just a projection of something that I don't like as a human quality? Or is this actually not a great leadership skill? Because those are two different things. Like I could not like you as a boss, because I think, you you do this, this or this, but that doesn't necessarily make you a bad leader. I just might not like who you are. So I would start with like looking around and seeing.

Really though, who are the leaders that you like? What do you admire about them? Can you break down the qualities that you feel like you like? And what did it feel like to receive that, I think is the other side of it. In terms of where to get started, I would say just don't be afraid to take some leadership courses. I think the misinformation...

Layci Nelson (35:44.142)
Mm.

Layci Nelson (35:58.249)
Mmm.

Kathleen Donaldson (36:03.165)
that people hear a lot is like, they're just born leaders. Like I hear that in classrooms and boardrooms, all of this stuff, like they're just a leader. I'm like, no, this like leadership is a skill. There might be personality traits that you have that make you like more able to develop those skills or you develop them more quickly, but you can't, I think we can't just assume because we're in the position we have the skills.

Layci Nelson (36:06.862)
Right.

Layci Nelson (36:12.834)
Mm-mm.

Layci Nelson (36:23.735)
Right.

Layci Nelson (36:30.774)
No. No.

Kathleen Donaldson (36:31.135)
and not at all. And I think the other part is like, please don't be afraid to ask for help. and starting to notice the areas that you're actually not doing well in is a good start. Like if you're

Layci Nelson (36:40.078)
Yes.

Layci Nelson (36:46.894)
Mmm.

Kathleen Donaldson (36:52.647)
managing people or young and managing people. We don't have to have it all figured out. And just being like, here's the areas I'm really struggling in. It doesn't have to be a thing of shame or guilt. I think it's actually worse to power through. It's worse to power through and be like, I'm just gonna figure it out. Like, no, I actually think it's really great to get help.

Layci Nelson (36:59.159)
rights.

Layci Nelson (37:07.81)
Yes.

I agree.

Layci Nelson (37:17.74)
Yes.

Kathleen Donaldson (37:17.769)
There's tons of mentors, there's tons of skills, there's tons of classes that you can take. Just starting to be really honest and maybe take inventory of the places you need to grow. Because I think here's what I'll say as someone who's like a big nerd and likes to learn and has a lot of like knowledge in that way is oftentimes we just need these little adjustments. They're not as big as we feel that they are.

Layci Nelson (37:28.93)
Yes.

Layci Nelson (37:38.434)
Yes.

Layci Nelson (37:44.162)
Mm-hmm.

Kathleen Donaldson (37:47.927)
And so if you can start being like, okay, this is where I feel like I'm struggling. Let me just get help for that. You don't maybe need like help for all the other things that are going well. That has been really helpful for me. I'm at a point where I'm finding like, I need help with practical application of knowledge, right? And I need those very like niche scenario questions answered.

Layci Nelson (37:58.232)
Right.

Layci Nelson (38:06.029)
Mm-hmm.

Kathleen Donaldson (38:14.399)
And especially as an entrepreneur, I think it's so valuable to have community and places where you can just talk about what's going on, talk about what skills you need. In Chicago, there's this place called Founders Therapy. Incredible. And you go and you basically say like, here's where I'm struggling, this is where I need help. And there's so many resources for you as a leader, as a founder, all of those things.

Layci Nelson (38:19.115)
Yes, yes.

Layci Nelson (38:30.944)
my gosh, I love it.

Kathleen Donaldson (38:43.742)
I think the main part of it is like assessing where you are, but not being afraid to ask for help or get the skills and not bringing in shame, like bring in some self-compassion around like, how was I supposed to know this? Like we weren't taught this. There's no, like you weren't born, there's no such thing as like being born with like very like practical leadership skills.

Layci Nelson (38:51.01)
Yes.

Layci Nelson (38:57.408)
Yes! Yes!

Layci Nelson (39:07.99)
No, no, no, nobody's born with them. Only 14 % of managers in management positions that have been there for decades actually have them. 14%, that is it. And they don't have even all of them. They just have enough that they're not considered awful. just thank you for sharing that. And as someone who also, like, got a few years on Kathleen, more than a few, but.

Kathleen Donaldson (39:23.711)
You

Layci Nelson (39:36.288)
someone who also started my trajectory of growth in leadership positions very young as yourself, someone in my early mid-20s was managing people, building teams, all of those things. One of the things that I would hear over and over again, which I internalized in a way that wasn't helpful, and I love how you just said stop attaching shame and guilt to it, is I would hear the phrase like, sometimes I just forget how young you are.

because I was so good at other aspects. And I would generalize like, well, that means I'm supposed to be good at all the things. And it wasn't until I stopped and gave myself permission. Basically, I had like a breakdown and was completely burned out and falling apart. And that's what it took for me. That was, I don't want that. That's why we do this podcast. Don't go there. So yeah, thank you for sharing that with listeners.

Kathleen Donaldson (40:27.955)
Great.

Layci Nelson (40:34.252)
Don't take, if you're a young leader coming up, don't internalize all the praise you get and the gold stars as you're supposed to have it figured out. No, you're not. No, you're not.

Kathleen Donaldson (40:46.239)
Yeah, no. And there's no way to. You can get support. So many people, I will say on the other side of it, so many people are so happy to support you, happy to show up for you. You are not a burden. This is in everyday life, but in business, there's so many incredible leaders who are happy to mentor you, offer you skills. They don't want you to make the same mistakes they did, thus this podcast.

Layci Nelson (40:58.09)
Yes.

Layci Nelson (41:14.743)
Yes.

Kathleen Donaldson (41:16.735)
Like oftentimes asking for help is the best thing that you can do. And it builds these incredible relationships where you're like, not only do I feel like I have the skill now, but I feel like I have someone to talk to. I feel supported. Like asking for help brings you like everything you need and more. So it's like, don't be afraid. And like, just because you're good at your expertise area, like no one's assuming that you're great at everything.

Layci Nelson (41:21.475)
Yes.

Layci Nelson (41:28.706)
Yes! Yes!

Layci Nelson (41:37.172)
Mm-hmm.

Layci Nelson (41:45.206)
Right. Because any of us that have been doing this for 10 minutes know that where nobody is, nobody is, right? So those people that you're looking at, that are ahead of you, if they're still in the game, they know ain't nobody got this figured out. None of us.

Kathleen Donaldson (41:46.729)
But we might think that.

Kathleen Donaldson (41:50.919)
No.

Kathleen Donaldson (42:01.475)
No, no. And it would be ridiculous to try to be good at everything. Like again, with the niche thing, like you get really good at what you need. And then we're like, okay, we need to bring in these other skills to support. But like you said, like, you're not going to sit here and become a marketing expert because it actually is not a good value, like valuable part of your time. Right? So it's like, it's ridiculous to think that we have to know everything. and we actually shouldn't, if we're trying to build these successful businesses.

Layci Nelson (42:05.762)
Yeah.

Layci Nelson (42:21.992)
Great!

Layci Nelson (42:26.434)
Right.

Layci Nelson (42:30.382)
100%, 100%. Really, when you are in the leadership seat, your job is people. That is the primary role. You've got to get good at people. The rest of it, you can build your orchestra, right? So, Kathleen, thank you so much for being on the show. Where can people find you? We're going to drop all your links, but what is the best way to get in touch with you if they're interested in, I don't know.

Kathleen Donaldson (42:37.085)
Mm-hmm.

Kathleen Donaldson (42:45.373)
Yeah, absolutely.

Kathleen Donaldson (42:54.207)
Mm-hmm.

Layci Nelson (42:59.96)
connecting with you as someone that resonated with them or like, hey, I'm really interested in this calm and connected thing or I've got young people in my life or I've got a workplace that needs more support. Mental health is very important. How do they find you?

Kathleen Donaldson (43:10.323)
Mm-hmm.

great.

So Kathleen Donaldson, consulting.com. can also feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn, Kathleen Donaldson. On my website, there is a book call sign and you can book an hour discovery call with me and we can talk about what's going on and see what ways I can support you.

Layci Nelson (43:19.285)
Alright.

Layci Nelson (43:35.672)
Perfect. We will drop all of that in the notes. And thank you. Thank you for being here. It was such a great conversation. I always learn from you every time we talk. You are just so much fun to engage with as a colleague and just as a human. So thank you so much.

Kathleen Donaldson (43:57.193)
Thank you so much for having me.

Layci Nelson (43:59.116)
Yes. And until next time, friends, go manage like a leader.