Leadership in Unexpected Places, feat. Benjamin Kintisch, creator of “Life Review: The Hospice Musical”
Layci (00:02.072)
Hello friends and welcome back to Confessions of a Terrible Leader. I'm your host and let us not forget former terrible leader, Layci Nelson. Benjamin Kintisch welcome to the show. I was, I popped on as you were talking with Mary, our amazing producer, listeners are familiar with Mary, and I happened to come in on you just randomly singing about
I don't remember what it was, but the fact that you were singing in a regular conversation,
Benjamin Kintisch (00:36.458)
I break into song. It happens a lot.
Layci (00:39.53)
I was all in, like immediately.
Benjamin Kintisch (00:40.62)
listeners be warned if that upsets you you can just skip to the next one this is like a good trigger alerts here we'll we'll start with breaking into song as trigger warning number one two is my topic matter death and dying and three musical theater so all of those upset people in different ways but if you can tolerate all three yeah we can talk about how you go from an idea to a musical in 10 years or so
Layci (00:53.482)
Yes.
Yes.
Layci (01:00.686)
And I am here for it. Yes.
Layci (01:09.102)
Yeah. I mean, you have just, I'm sure, really piqued interest already. You are a creator. You are a playwright. You are a music educator. You are a chaplain and a cantor. All of those things exist in you and so much more. So dynamic. I can't wait to dig in and figure out like, how did you get to this point in your life right now where you're...
of music educators, what you're doing and producing, writing, creating all of the things for a musical on a heavy subject. What? Yes. So, okay. First, let's like reverse engineer this. Tell us about, I know this is a dangerous question to ask a playwright and a singer, but I'm asking it. Tell us about your project. I want to hear about your musical. I want to know.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:44.65)
Yes, absolutely.
Benjamin Kintisch (02:02.55)
it's not dangerous at all. I'm delighted for you to ask. So my show is called Life Review, the Hospice Musical. It's a musical comedy inspired by my real life experiences training as a beginner chaplain in hospice care. So a chaplain, in case you don't know, is a religious professional who tends to the spiritual needs of regular people going through
Layci (02:16.526)
Mm.
Benjamin Kintisch (02:26.656)
difficult life circumstances. So most famously in pop culture, we know the chaplain in mash. If you're of a certain older generation, if you're a little younger, you might know chaplains from other movies or in real life in a hospital visiting grandma or your parents, whatever. And the nice priests, Rabbi Iman comes strolling through, that's the chaplain. And that was something I did, I was training.
Layci (02:49.121)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (02:54.702)
Mm
Benjamin Kintisch (02:55.529)
And my first, when you do chaplaincy training, Layci, you need a place where you do the hours working with people. So I worked at a residential hospice in central New Jersey. Part of the work is visiting room to room. You sit near the patients. If they're conversational, you have a talk. If they're quiet, non -conversational, non -verbal, might.
Layci (03:01.976)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (03:20.818)
I might bring your guitar, play some music, sing a song or do a prayer. Just sit there in silence.
Layci (03:23.611)
Mm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (03:27.888)
So I did the full range of things. And sometimes you make music or pray with the plus one, the spouse, the sibling, the adult child. So I did a lot of that kind of stuff. In the course of those visits, I heard beautiful stories, Layci. And then one evening, I called my wife as I was driving home, I said, honey, I'm hearing these amazing stories. I think they want to be songs. And she said, get writing. So that night when I got home safely, I got one of those journal books out and I started
Layci (03:34.338)
Yeah.
Layci (03:49.615)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (03:57.284)
scribbling down notes for a song that would become the first ballad in the show. It's called Will It Still Snow? I borrowed the title from a poem by my mother -in -law, but the idea is a woman imagining life after her death. She was from New England, so she has positive associations with snow, know, skiing and outdoor stuff.
Layci (04:16.108)
Yeah. Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (04:19.86)
and she's wondering is life gonna go on after hers ends. So that became the conceit of the song and it just kinda poured out of me. A few months later, I shared it at a conference where, Jewish education conference, and not really a music thing, but a space had been provided, a workshop for people to share songs. It was led by a person who had become a friend and mentor.
Layci (04:23.949)
Yeah.
Layci (04:35.288)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (04:40.236)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (04:43.208)
Sue Horowitz. So I shared my song. It wasn't even fully done, but the basic idea was there and half the room was crying when it was finished. So Sue came up to me afterwards and said, Ben, I think you've created something of great power. Is there more material? I said there is. And she said, well, you need to keep going. She promised me a stage for the following summer. She said, I'll give you a late night. You can share a couple songs.
Layci (04:51.948)
Yeah. Ugh. Yes.
Layci (04:59.115)
Yeah.
Layci (05:04.176)
Mmm
Benjamin Kintisch (05:09.662)
She saw me the following summer. She liked what I had. She said, next summer you get a stage. So at that point it was pedaled to the metal with co -writes. I joined with a couple of musicians, Mike Miller, Jason Spiewak, secondarily Andy Bassoff and Miriam Cook. Shout out to my music team. And so yeah, it takes a village. That's theme number one for Big Creative Project. You need a team. You can't do it by yourself.
Layci (05:15.054)
Mmm.
Layci (05:27.862)
Yes.
Layci (05:31.488)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (05:38.888)
Also, I was doing real life. This is my first ever project of this size and scope. I had co -written little songs here and there, but they were kind of like one -offs with friend and graduate school, for instance. This is the first time I ever had the nerve to really put something big together and also part of the nerviness along the way, what as Jews say, chutzpah.
Layci (05:46.573)
Yeah.
Layci (05:53.676)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (06:06.578)
or audacity as Barack Obama would say, it's to ask others not knowing how they might respond. So if you're asking someone to join your creative team for projects, there's a real chance that they'll say no thanks. They're not likely to pie you or punch you in the stomach. They can definitely reject you. They can feel like a punch in the stomach, especially if you're like.
Layci (06:07.935)
Yes.
Layci (06:14.146)
Yes!
Layci (06:21.898)
Yes. Right, right, but they can reject you and it can feel like a punch in the stomach. Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (06:33.544)
I don't know, sort of crushing on someone as a collaborator in the way that we sometimes do. But I'll tell you, one of, if...
Layci (06:36.672)
Yes. Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (06:45.694)
I'm presenting my story of life review as a certain kind of leadership because the idea of a musical set in hospice, like, okay, that's my concept. And that's why I call myself creator. I wrote every lyric with a few helps from Jason along the way. So he has co -write credits on like three songs.
Layci (06:51.543)
Yeah.
Layci (06:57.1)
Right. Yep.
Layci (07:04.642)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (07:07.67)
But Jason and Mike wrote the music for the rest, Andy and Miriam again, a little bit more. But most of the words are mine. The story is mine, the script is mine. But getting it beyond those scribbles in a book.
Layci (07:24.013)
Yep.
Benjamin Kintisch (07:24.46)
could not happen without at least 10 people who I can rattle off. The first one was Sue Horowitz, that mentor, a professional singer. By the way, if you like folk music, look her up. She's amazing. Sue Horowitz. I'll put her in the chat. There she is. And I think the relevant detail for anyone listening, if you're a creator, you gotta share your thing with someone beyond your...
Layci (07:30.914)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (07:36.386)
writing her name down right now. Okay. Yes. Perfect.
Benjamin Kintisch (07:54.22)
let's say smallest family unit. Yeah, I mean, maybe start with a sibling or a spouse or a loving child if they're still nice to you. I have a 13 year old, so I wouldn't run anything. All right, so Layci, if you have a different show about parenting, you gotta have me on, we can talk about it. And if you don't, maybe we'll laugh, I'll just start one. Cause you know what the internet needs more parenting advice. Goodness gracious, no.
Layci (07:56.898)
Right, that second circle. Yeah.
Layci (08:04.91)
Me too!
Layci (08:12.861)
my gosh, good pair notes.
Layci (08:19.95)
Absolutely. Never enough.
Benjamin Kintisch (08:23.872)
But back to what we do need is more hospice musicals. So far, I keep checking on the internet. I'm the only one.
Layci (08:28.212)
Yes!
I've not heard of a hospice musical. I was in Tennessee a few years ago at the Bluebird and I am trying to remember the songwriter, but he wrote a, one of the pieces that he performed was about cleaning out his parents' house after, yeah, after they had passed. And I...
Benjamin Kintisch (08:34.571)
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (08:38.759)
famous music joint, beautiful.
Benjamin Kintisch (08:53.426)
after they died. Beautiful. I love it already. So sad.
Layci (08:59.784)
I am not a crier and I was destroyed. Yeah, and we also, you my dad is.
Benjamin Kintisch (09:04.212)
Yeah, this stuff can be intense. Mm. Well, if you do show notes, Layci, you'll have to add the link to that song.
Layci (09:12.92)
I will, I will add the link to that song in this. I have it on a playlist. I don't know if I might or might not. I don't remember if he published that one. Anyway, sorry, sorry for the bird trail.
Benjamin Kintisch (09:14.708)
when you remember it later.
Fantastic.
Benjamin Kintisch (09:22.604)
I think one of, no, no, that's fine. I like the Tomb -Tomb associations. I'll tell you, to get to a musical, I paused the Genesis for a moment with some advice and then when we went off. But when I was promised the stage, I got it to 10 songs and we did a concert version, like a workshop. Andy was at the piano and he read a narration, which I had written. And that kind of provided forward motion for the audience.
Layci (09:35.874)
Yeah.
Layci (09:42.188)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (09:52.256)
but it was performed from books and we literally had two hours of rehearsal. That's it. So that was only a music rehearsal and people had to show up knowing their solos. That was the expectation. And they're all professional musicians, so they did great. Some of them are big names in the small world of Jewish music. So that was an exciting moment for the project. Six months later, we did it again.
Layci (10:06.274)
Yeah, yeah, incredible. Yep. Mm -hmm.
Layci (10:15.383)
Okay.
Yes!
Benjamin Kintisch (10:21.612)
with 14 or 15 songs and a full script and intermission, lightly staged. This time we had 10 hours of rehearsal over four weekends and a community theater cast, again with books in hand. So if you folks check out the website after my interview at lifereviewmusical .com, there's a great trailer video. Fantastic.
Layci (10:29.901)
Yep.
Layci (10:37.41)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Layci (10:46.028)
Yeah, we'll link it, everybody. Okay.
Benjamin Kintisch (10:49.004)
You can see this video with footage was shot right before COVID. That's when the event happened. So was standing room only, which is unheard of for a new show. Like over 200 people showed up. It was huge. It went off great, beautiful musically. It was one of like the peak moments of my life. Then COVID happened a month and a half later. And so like so many people with a creative project on the up hit the COVID brick wall, so to speak.
Layci (10:56.28)
Okay.
Layci (11:00.343)
Yeah
Layci (11:15.489)
Yep.
Absolute brick wall. Yep.
Benjamin Kintisch (11:18.668)
I went through some intense emotional stuff. I struggled with all of that disappointment. I worked with a coach actually who had her own COVID heartbreak. She had an off -Broadway contract with the start date of March 1. Or maybe it was a start date of April 1, but like a week or two just beyond when everything had closed. So her dream never came true.
Layci (11:21.837)
Mm -hmm.
Yes!
Layci (11:35.905)
AHHHH
Yeah.
Yeah, the world shut down March 13th and I remember that day because it's my son's birthday. And so that was not a fun birthday party.
Benjamin Kintisch (11:48.364)
There you go. Sorry, Worst birthday ever. Right. So we commiserated about our shared COVID heartbreaks. And then she said, look, Ben, you can do one of two things, put the project in a drawer, or do a hard pivot so that you can perform it this way. Facing that little white dot. And she did this gesture, you know, made some deep eye contact at the dot. And there you go.
Layci (11:53.804)
Right?
Layci (12:07.34)
Yeah.
Layci (12:10.647)
Yeah.
Layci (12:15.468)
You
Benjamin Kintisch (12:16.54)
at a certain point it becomes Ace Ventura a little cartoonish but yeah so you gotta be careful. Hashtag keep your distance. No but it was an important moment because when you're a creative person and you have a project a certain way you typically don't want to do a hard pivot whatever your medium is but in that moment it was like
Layci (12:19.823)
It does get a little scary, yes.
Layci (12:39.062)
No. No.
Benjamin Kintisch (12:42.956)
we could not do an ensemble show. I had written it for eight or 10 people, double or triple cast. I couldn't figure that out during COVID. And the other choice was like make a movie, which some people were doing, but that was clearly high tech and high dollar, neither of which I had. So she's like, okay, so how do you make it fit on the laptop? So basically I smushed it. I made it into a one -man show. So instead of 16 songs, I smushed it back down to eight songs.
Layci (12:49.889)
Yeah. Yeah.
Layci (12:57.374)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Layci (13:12.558)
Okay.
Benjamin Kintisch (13:13.13)
So took the opening number and the closing number and then which six in between. And that's how you make a one man show. So I did that. I actually performed it over a dozen times during the pandemic. The two highlights, one was a charity gig co -hosted by a podcast friend. Shout out to Dr. Karen Wyatt. We did a fundraiser for Denver Hospice and also raised some funds for my project. So was real happy. And
Layci (13:18.626)
Nice.
Yeah.
Layci (13:26.114)
Okay.
Layci (13:36.609)
Okay.
Layci (13:40.961)
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (13:43.264)
That was really cool. And the other one was a former employer where I had done some of my chaplaincy training, Hebrew Home, which is a big elder care facility in the greater Washington area. This is near DC. They hired me during the pandemic and then they piped me through their internal cable channel. So my face was in hundreds of rooms throughout the facility. So whether you're in the common room or in your bed, you could see my show.
Layci (13:56.654)
Mm
Layci (14:04.233)
Mmm!
Benjamin Kintisch (14:12.416)
when I played live at Hebrew Home. So that was exciting. Eventually the world opened up. I played Asheville Fringe Festival again with the one man because it fits the fringe format. You have to be under an hour to do fringe festivals. So it's like, I guess the second lesson about the pivot is like sometimes when you do a hard pivot, if you don't come up with something altogether new and better, you have something altogether new and different.
Layci (14:12.466)
Very exciting.
Layci (14:19.928)
Yeah.
Layci (14:39.138)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (14:39.276)
So right now I still have this two hour and 20 minute show. People, if you're listening and you're involved to theater, get in touch if you want to be a producing partner at Let's Talk. But if you don't, it's just like an interesting pivot for me, right? Because I can easily, and I have brought this one man show to house shows. I played in nearby Silver Spring at a friend's house. I went to my in -laws house in Chicago, did a double show and sold out both nights. So like.
Layci (14:46.071)
Yeah.
Layci (15:05.39)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (15:08.94)
I don't know, 70 people over two nights. That was really great. Including partnering with a foundation that's gonna lead to another thing, right? It's all about growing the project. And then finally, the future is I'm booked for Charm City Fringe, four appearances in Baltimore City coming up end of September, early October. I'm doing a one night only at my synagogue.
Layci (15:11.991)
Yeah.
Layci (15:17.742)
Excellent. Okay, okay, I have a question.
Benjamin Kintisch (15:35.312)
in three weeks. I'm doing another one night only in my parents' synagogue in November. So those are great opportunities. And then I'm going to continue to put myself out there for more fringe festivals, more new playwright festivals. And it seems like a lot of conferences are interested in me because there's like the clinical aspect. So it's not the dream. know, the dream is still to stand it up on stage and to partner with a theater company.
Layci (15:54.53)
Yeah, yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (16:03.616)
What I'm hoping is it's not mutually exclusive because right now all I have are the arrangements that are on the calendar. You have questions, I'll catch my breath.
Layci (16:06.594)
Right? Right.
Layci (16:12.802)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. I do. I have so many questions. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for taking us through that process. I loved it. You already previously did it, but you don't even know because you just did it without knowing. So the first question I have is what was your motivation, your catalyst, like...
Benjamin Kintisch (16:18.953)
I've got so many answers see I broke into song as warned
Benjamin Kintisch (16:34.548)
Ruh -roh.
Layci (16:40.418)
Being a chaplain is heavy emotional work. What made you go, yeah, I think I'd like to step into people's misery with them.
Benjamin Kintisch (16:43.272)
Mmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (16:49.624)
well. OK, so first, there's a big picture comment and then there's like a historical moment. Big picture comment is I've always been a deeply feeling person. I cry at movies. I cry at books. I sometimes even cry listening to a soundtrack. It's part of my superpower as a performer, as a vocalist.
Layci (16:59.768)
Okay.
Layci (17:04.727)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (17:15.337)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (17:15.66)
that I can turn on that emotion and feel it deeply as I sing. And that's part of what makes what I do on stage powerful to the audience. I mean, I have 20 years plus of training and experience as a vocalist. So I'm also quite good technically, but that's not the emotional piece. So the emotional thing has always been there both as a singer, but just kind of as a person.
Layci (17:19.233)
Yes.
Layci (17:29.612)
Yeah.
Layci (17:36.492)
Yeah.
Layci (17:40.984)
Right.
Layci (17:45.496)
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (17:45.926)
so when I did those career tests coming up Layci, I always scored high in the helping and feeling industries. So that includes basically everything I've done. So go, go figure the, sometimes the quizzes are right. that included teaching. Yeah, but I forget the thing and I'm sorry. I know any of grand people are always disappointed when I don't know my number right away.
Layci (17:53.644)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Layci (18:01.752)
Wait, wait, have you ever taken an Enneagram test, ever?
That's okay.
Layci (18:11.852)
That's okay.
Benjamin Kintisch (18:13.484)
No, but it said I should be a teacher or a helper like in a clinical setting or a counselor or a caregiver for small children or a camp counselor. And it's like, I've done 100 % of those jobs. So there you go. But yeah, so I have emotion available. So I care deeply about people and I'm not afraid of the tough stuff.
Layci (18:18.017)
Yep.
Layci (18:23.981)
Yeah.
Layci (18:28.044)
Yeah, yeah, you are fulfilling.
Layci (18:37.218)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (18:40.876)
In terms of my biography, the historical moment, early in my career, I was trained as a cantor. That's again, a music minister in the Jewish synagogue. My very first full -time job was a, let's call it an older community. It had some young families, but at least half of the congregants were 55 plus, if not 65 plus, which meant like I literally did a funeral a month.
Layci (18:48.896)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (18:56.952)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (19:02.24)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yep.
Layci (19:08.322)
Yeah, yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (19:10.41)
both for congregants or for the elderly parents of congregants who are in their 60s. You see how the math works? Right, because sometimes they need their cantor from the home synagogue to help out, whatever it is. So I did a lot of that, what we would call bereavement work, related to the official role of being the cantor at the service. So I'm up there and I don't really talk to the...
Layci (19:17.407)
yeah, yeah.
Layci (19:22.796)
Yes.
Layci (19:27.5)
Mm -hmm
Layci (19:36.277)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (19:38.934)
congregants, but for greeting them in the room before. You know, I'm wearing my black suit. being serious. During the service, I sing a sad song in a way and all the people are sad and they cry. And then we leave and I'm solemn and you know, in a certain sense, there's a theatricality of the solemnity. If and when people are ready to be a little light and joke, I'm very funny and I have that available, but I know how to turn that on and off.
Layci (19:42.115)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Layci (19:48.611)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (19:53.57)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (19:57.986)
Yeah. Yeah.
Layci (20:08.108)
Right.
Benjamin Kintisch (20:08.924)
But I'm not uncomfortable with the specter of death or the challenge of being serious. In terms of working as a chaplain in hospice care, that's when I chose that as a specialty for my first year. When I interviewed the the rabbi said who would be my trainer, Rabbi David, David Glicksman, he said, so you know, hospice has a lot of death and dying, right?
Layci (20:22.584)
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (20:38.12)
And I said, I've heard that and we kind of laughed. And he's like, are you uncomfortable? I said, are you comfortable? He goes, are you comfortable with dead people? I was like, you know, in a general sense, sure. don't hang out with them socially. And we laughed again and he said, all right, I think you're funny enough to do hospice. And he said, he said, all joking aside, one of the biggest challenges of working in hospice is people are dying.
Layci (20:51.118)
Right?
Layci (20:57.313)
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (21:08.116)
And so there's a heaviness. He's like, but I think your lightness will serve you well. So I think that that was the particular challenge of hospice work. I took some details of that and included that in the narrative, the fictionalized narrative of our beginner chaplain in the story. He is a beginner chaplain in the hospice care. He looks very much like me.
Layci (21:12.236)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (21:28.396)
Right. Mm.
Layci (21:35.297)
-huh.
Benjamin Kintisch (21:36.125)
and sounds like me when he sings. But his name is Rabbi David Goodman. So David probably as an honor to my trainer, Rabbi David, and also the famous biblical musician and Goodman, like so many literati, I made an unsubtle code in his last name. He is a good man. And he wants so badly to help Layci, but he's struggling with his own grief.
Layci (21:42.446)
Okay.
Layci (21:51.906)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (21:58.25)
Ugh.
Layci (22:05.962)
Not unlike yourself, Ben, when you had to pivot. I'm sure there was some grief there as well.
Benjamin Kintisch (22:12.672)
That is an excellent connection. I have had to grieve some dreams deferred at this project because when you have a standing room only for your second workshop, you feel like this thing is popping off. I don't know what's going to happen, but it's exciting. And like, I barely slept that night. Exactly. And in a certain sense, I, I don't see a wave again, but I feel a lot of exciting connections happening now.
Layci (22:25.322)
yes. You see the wave cresting. Yes, yes.
Layci (22:42.945)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (22:43.364)
And I'm getting a lot better at sharing the project. And I mean, I've been doing this kind of thing, know, podcasts and other media appearances long enough that I'm quite good at talking about the project in a pithy way, which also helps for in real life when there's no microphone. I am friendly, but I do have some pretty intense social anxiety and certain kinds of moments despite.
Layci (22:53.517)
Yeah.
Layci (22:58.808)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Layci (23:09.89)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (23:10.806)
feeling affable on the mic. like I recently went to something called the Baltimore Playwrights Brew. I'm in a suburb of Baltimore City. So it's basically like an open mic for playwriters. And I showed up with my guitar and I hadn't even signed up exactly the right way. But I was like, got, can I sing a couple of songs for my show? And they let me in because there weren't any musicals on the, on the list.
Layci (23:18.561)
Okay.
Layci (23:23.8)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (23:31.372)
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (23:36.784)
And I was well received and a couple people like wanted to talk to me after including one person from a playhouse. And she mentioned something like, we have our main season booked, but you know, we do this thing called the salon series where we feature new works. And I took a deep breath and I looked her in the eye, which is hard for me. And I said, I would like light, no, I'm not even, I would like life review should be in the salon series this coming year. How do we make it happen?
Layci (23:38.826)
Mmm.
Layci (23:44.098)
Okay.
Layci (23:55.778)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (24:06.03)
Good for you.
Benjamin Kintisch (24:06.848)
And it was like a little bit bolder than I'm accustomed to, but that's kind of what I'm trying to do more of because I don't, acknowledging how lovely it is to get any audience at this moment, I don't want to literally be stuck in, not literally, I don't want to metaphorically be stuck in a purgatory of chaplaincy or hospice conferences.
Layci (24:11.158)
Yeah.
Layci (24:15.618)
Yeah.
Layci (24:24.012)
Right? Right?
Benjamin Kintisch (24:36.652)
Like, I'm proud to say I'm booked for the Illinois State Hospice Conference for spring 2025. And that's gonna be a nice gig. And there might be like a thousand people in a room. It might lead to another 10 gigs, who knows? I might be like the hottest act in Illinois hospice musical entertainment. However, the follow -up question is like, is that the business that I want to be in?
Layci (24:36.738)
Right, right.
Layci (24:43.148)
Yeah.
Layci (24:47.331)
Yeah.
Layci (24:55.98)
Right, right.
Layci (25:02.797)
Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (25:04.2)
Maybe it depends on how many people want me and how much are they willing to pay? mark.
Layci (25:10.09)
Right, right, right? Or maybe that becomes the engine that allows you to take it to a larger, more varied audience.
Benjamin Kintisch (25:19.646)
Maybe, I mean, if I can fit paying gigs for conferences that we know have nice budgets for entertainers and therefore I can keep flexing my nervy muscle to charge more, which is another thing we leaders have to learn how to do, right? Ask for what we're worth in all kinds of ways. Musicians are notoriously bad at asking for money.
Layci (25:27.7)
Right. Right.
Layci (25:36.286)
million percent. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yeah, I know, I was raised in a family of them.
Benjamin Kintisch (25:47.602)
It's tough, it's But there is another thing that for the time being, in addition to being happy about having an audience, the hey, you never know principle is important. Because while I would be thrilled to have a person with a famous last name, I don't know, a Rockefeller, listen to your show and then hit me up on Insta.
Layci (26:01.592)
Yeah.
Layci (26:09.932)
Right.
Benjamin Kintisch (26:13.814)
Cool, if you want to send me all the way to Broadway with your million, I'll take your millions rather. I'll take your call or DM, however you want to get in touch. More realistically, it's probably going to be a team of smaller partners. How do they find me? I think they find me Layci through small appearances. And I keep connecting and asking and connecting and asking.
Layci (26:21.163)
Yeah
Layci (26:28.206)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (26:38.343)
Well, I'm going to be like, I'm all in. I'm sold now. I am invested in this journey. I am going to go to the, I have not watched your website, the clips on your website. I will be. I in full transparency. I haven't watched them yet, but I will be. I'm in.
Benjamin Kintisch (26:51.372)
Fantastic. Thank you for your candor, as I say to any kid who fesses up in school. Appreciate your honesty.
Layci (26:57.39)
Yes, yes. I, but I am the topic itself is very personal. think for most of us, I don't think you reach a certain age in life. I'm 45. So I don't, okay. I don't think we get this point in life, unfortunately, without experiencing a pretty big personal loss and understand the depth of, of emotion when someone leaves this
Benjamin Kintisch (27:06.389)
Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (27:10.348)
Almost the same. I'm 44. Beautiful.
Layci (27:27.022)
plane of existence. And so what an absolute gift to be able to engage people in a way that feels safe. we just don't we I mean, would you agree with the sentiment that in general in America, we're really bad at death and talking about death?
Benjamin Kintisch (27:28.724)
Absolutely.
Benjamin Kintisch (27:53.399)
I'll give you a qualified yes. I'll answer a different question as I want to do. I would say many adults are very uncomfortable in engaging with their own mortality.
Layci (27:55.672)
Okay.
Yes. Yes.
Layci (28:11.992)
Mmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (28:12.18)
I think children are more comfortable engaging with all the difficult topics than we give them credit for. And when we're honest with them, they're easy and ready to go. So I'm just gonna skip over that category. Despite being very good at it, that's a different show. My musical is meant for an adult audience. And the basic question, if I heard it is like, is this a very difficult topic for us? Yes, it is. I believe...
Layci (28:18.424)
I agree.
Layci (28:22.807)
Yeah.
Layci (28:26.808)
Ha
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (28:37.448)
It's a popular topic in pop culture. Think superhero movies, in musical theater, think One Home, Les Mis, Phantom, Sweeney Todd, Assassins. I could go on and on all the shows that have been commercially successful with tons of death and dying. So the fact of death and dying, whether on stage or on screen, is not actually taboo. I think where people get uncomfortable,
Layci (28:42.222)
Yeah, -hmm.
Layci (28:53.677)
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (29:06.652)
is looking in the mirror and engaging with their own changing body, their own changing appearance as they age, their limitations as their bodies evolve from young person to middle -aged person to older person to dying person, right? Those are different stages that we almost walk through. And I'm able to speak about that.
Layci (29:13.603)
Yeah.
Layci (29:19.831)
Yeah.
Layci (29:26.146)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (29:30.604)
fluently and with comfort because I'm trained as a chaplain and my specialty is aging and dying because I've done elder care for two, for what is it, 500 hours and another 500 hours with hospice. So a lot of time with, you know, elders and a lot of people on their way to death.
Layci (29:34.924)
Yeah. Mm -hmm.
Layci (29:44.28)
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (29:53.258)
So I'm comfortable talking about it more than most, but for the so -called civilian who doesn't work in this space, it is challenging to say the least. I would say the hopeful thing for me as a creator in this area, Layci, I do believe there's more interest in it than ever before. This would, I believe is partially attributable to the COVID pandemic.
Layci (29:59.384)
Yeah.
Layci (30:04.034)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (30:21.508)
More of us in a younger age bracket dealt with death and dying in a way that we hadn't anticipated prior to pandemic. So very specific example to you and I since we're nearly the same age. Are your parents still alive, Layci?
Layci (30:29.42)
Yes, I agree. Yep.
Layci (30:34.84)
Yeah.
They are, but I lost my father -in -law a couple of years ago who is a father to me. So, yeah. Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (30:43.03)
Sorry to hear that. So for the living parents, what are they late 70s or 80s?
Layci (30:48.82)
No, they started young. My parents are in their 60s. So, yes, yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (30:54.43)
Okay, so you have young parents, that's unusual. My parents waited a bit, so they're like late 70s, and my wife's older. Okay.
Layci (30:59.726)
My dad's chronically ill and he's tried to die literally three times. He's been on life support 11 days and pulled out of it and is a pancreatic cancer survivor. Whole journey. Your ilk in the hospital coming through, familiar. Been at the bedside myself with my own dad more than once. So yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (31:05.899)
Wow.
Benjamin Kintisch (31:11.503)
my goodness.
Benjamin Kintisch (31:15.562)
Wow.
Benjamin Kintisch (31:23.688)
my goodness. Well, I hope if you've had help from chaplains, they've been helpful. If not, I apologize. Generally, the chaplains I've met have been quite wonderful, patient, sort of the best, most loving clergy there are because it's sort of the opposite.
Layci (31:28.61)
Yes. No, they were beautiful souls that gave us a lot of comfort.
Layci (31:38.625)
Yeah.
Layci (31:42.082)
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (31:44.928)
You have to subsume your ego. That's one of the lessons of the hero in the musical. In the beginning of the play, he kind of stumbles when he tries to...
Layci (31:50.451)
Mmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (31:55.212)
I'm going to use the word pontificate though it's funny for a young rabbi to do so. But he was basically sermonizing for a mother whose 20 year old son was dying of cancer. And he mentioned Job in a way that was glib and unfunny talking about the fact that, Job's children died and he was a good man and she was horrified. So it's written as an intentionally horrible scene.
Layci (32:02.114)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (32:07.882)
Mm -hmm
Layci (32:15.946)
right, right.
Right. I'm cringing right now.
Benjamin Kintisch (32:24.212)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. That is the desired effect. This is co -written by my co -writer, Beth Broadway. Actual name, yeah, she did well in that scene. And so the woman casts him out and this is actually his low moment professionally. And he looks to the heavens, he sings his I Wish song, which is Send Me a Sign. And he's asking for, you know, a divine intervention because he's feeling so lost. So it's a very specific...
Layci (32:26.478)
Nailed it.
Layci (32:39.511)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (32:49.216)
Mmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (32:52.032)
professional moment, know, a chaplain who's picked the wrong thing to quote, but the meta lesson is like your job when people are in distress, your job is not to teach or preach. Your job is to sit in the silence. If you have permission, hold hands.
Layci (32:53.473)
Yeah.
Layci (33:04.409)
Mmm. Mmm.
Layci (33:11.566)
powerful. I'm getting chills.
Benjamin Kintisch (33:14.132)
Yeah. And that's something that Rabbi David learns and, and then asking some questions to invite stories. And then in the second, in the heart of the play, we hear those songs that become the stories that become songs, kind of like chorus line. And then towards the end of the play, you know, of course, we have to say goodbye to some of our friends as happens, but we end on a hopeful note, I promise. So that's life review in a, in a, in a hot
Layci (33:22.146)
Yes.
Layci (33:28.386)
Yes. Yes.
Layci (33:36.707)
Yep.
my gosh.
Benjamin Kintisch (33:43.998)
in a hot minute. I want to talk, I know that you have a funny podcast name that the what is it the fail. So can we talk a little bit about some of the ways I've stumbled terribly as? OK, fantastic, because there's a lot I'm ready to spill the tea and maybe even cry a little if it helps.
Layci (33:51.192)
confessions of a terrible leader, yes?
Layci (33:59.126)
that's exactly where I was going next. So perfect timing. Yes, because I want to see how it's, yeah. Spill the tea. I want all the, all the juicy details. Spill the tea. And I'm going to be, I can't help myself making connections to all this context we just learned about you. And I'm sure we're going to see reflections of your learnings in your creation. It has to be there. So just start talking. I'm here to listen.
Benjamin Kintisch (34:23.596)
Okay, cool. All right. So, again, I'm gonna, my big idea here is that as leader, it's the creator, the hands on the wheel of the ship. So the idea began and the very first challenging moment was when I first began co -writing. So the first part of it was I had a lot of nervousness about even doing the ask.
Layci (34:34.902)
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Layci (34:52.739)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (34:52.756)
because this was a guy I perceived as quote, a cool dad at the JCC. So above average in looks and job status, he was an actual, was is an actual professional studio level musician in New York City. He owns a record label, super cool dude.
Layci (34:59.766)
Yep.
Layci (35:07.439)
My gosh, yeah collaborative crush big time. Yes
Benjamin Kintisch (35:12.872)
Exactly, exactly. I didn't, I didn't think because like, who the fuck am I part of my French? And needed or not. This cancer knows how to curse congregants are always horrified to discover or like if they curse in front of me, they're like, sorry, cancer. And I'd say, don't worry, I know all the curses by heart.
Layci (35:18.712)
You're fine, you can swear. Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (35:35.84)
Thank you, thank you. So anyway, when I asked, I told Jason about the project and he was like, it sounds interesting. Why don't you come over? We'll have a drink. I'll pour some nice brown and you can tell me more about the project. And went to his house and I was super nervous. I'd never hung out with him socially. So like I was already like, I'm hanging out with the cool guy. And we talked at lunch table exactly.
Layci (35:54.996)
Right?
You're going to the cool kids lunch table?
Benjamin Kintisch (36:02.75)
except it was like high stakes because it wasn't the lunch table. It's like, this, cause if this real guy joined my project, it, it's sort of, I wasn't asking him to win his creds, but when I discovered his bio, I was like, the fraud complex was off the charts. Good news. He was very lovely, remains a very chill dude. And we had a drink.
Layci (36:04.842)
Yes. Right. Something very real.
Layci (36:21.41)
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (36:31.116)
I told him about the project. He said he thought it was funny and brilliant. We had a little debate. I said, I think it's a musical. He's like, let's start with a concept album because that's only five songs. He's like, a musical is going to be at least 10 or 12 songs, and that's going to take a lot longer. So he was right, and I was right. He was right in that having a smaller project to tackle was a good strategy for new collaboration. I was right that we were going to get to a musical.
Layci (36:47.384)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Layci (36:55.224)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (36:59.744)
And so sometimes you can both be right, even as you disagree. The other thing that happened is we laughed and we we kind of had the spirit of improv people like any idea is a good idea. I had my pen going fast as I do because, you know, let's just say if I don't write it down, I won't remember.
Layci (37:02.467)
Yeah.
Layci (37:22.861)
Yep.
Benjamin Kintisch (37:25.104)
He had like one joke that ended up building the opening song, which is hilarious, which is spoiler alert, everybody is going to be dead at the end. And then I rewrote it to everybody dies in the end because that sings better. And it's hilarious. And that's the opening number. It's vaudeville and it breaks the ice. It's vocally a workout when I do it as a solo. It's really meant to be an ensemble number.
Layci (37:38.346)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (37:52.216)
which is why four minutes feels like four hours and I'm huffing and puffing. And then I have seven songs left. Sometimes when I'm done with the show and I'm catching my breath and someone says, boy, you look tired. I say, who the hell wrote this thing? There's a lot of words. Which I believe is a joke that both Lin -Manuel Miranda and Stephen Sondheim have been known to say. So.
Layci (37:56.566)
You're all over the map. Yes, I'm sure
man.
Layci (38:09.976)
Yeah, right?
Layci (38:16.908)
Yes, yes, I immediately thought of Lin -Manuel Miranda when you said that. He writes so many words. Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (38:20.78)
He writes a lot of words, yeah. So many words, yeah. No, mine isn't Hamilton level, but there is a lot of words. But here's the thing in terms of the, so the very first big moment as leader was going into a collaboration in a way that was open and vulnerable. So the opening meeting went well. Our first co -write session was moderately successful. And then I brought a lyric.
Layci (38:37.987)
Yeah.
Layci (38:42.861)
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (38:50.188)
to our, it might've been bringing a lyric to our first co -write in person. He had done one that was like pen pal style, where I just emailed the lyric and he did it and it worked. But I brought one to him and I thought it was good. It was not good. And he looked at it. It was meant to be sort of a funny dance number. And basically the central punchline was unfunny and it was built on a pun based on a term that is no longer in use.
Layci (38:56.359)
Mm -hmm. Yep.
Layci (39:03.244)
Mm -hmm. Mmm.
Layci (39:09.782)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (39:18.76)
So do you see the problem? Not funny and anachronistic, like doubly unworkable. Yeah. And I was like, it's clever. And I'm going to repeat the punchline a hundred times. And he just held it up and he's like, Ben, this isn't it.
Layci (39:18.926)
Mmm. yeah.
Yeah, Audience will have no idea. Yeah.
Layci (39:30.264)
Yeah.
Layci (39:35.0)
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (39:36.788)
And I was like visibly crestfallen. And he goes, hold on a second, Ben.
Layci (39:40.366)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (39:43.798)
take a deep breath and then you need to like pick your head up because you and I have something that's like, it's called a creative relationship and you have to trust me because if I tell you that something that is not good is good, then my word is useless and we will not put out good work. He's like, the last alert you gave me was excellent and I told you that because it was excellent.
Layci (40:08.568)
Yes. Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (40:11.144)
If it was not excellent, and I told you it was excellent, I would be full of shit and you would not want to work with me. He's like, so either if I'm too soft or too hard, I will break trust. I will not do that. He's like, but you need to trust that not every lyric you bring me is going to be your strongest. And that's OK, because you have more than one song. And then he's like, you have do you have anything else in that book? And so we opened it up.
Layci (40:16.056)
Trust will be broken. Yep. Yep.
Layci (40:23.864)
Right.
Layci (40:30.787)
Right?
Layci (40:34.068)
yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (40:39.786)
and he flipped through and then at every piece of text he stopped and read. And I tried to say something like, that's not, and he's like, shut up. And he just looked for the text because he knew that what he was looking for was a rough lyric.
Layci (40:50.211)
you
Yeah.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (40:58.484)
Mostly because I'm a beginner lyricist. Now I know to bring to a co -write a quote polished lyric that's ready for a co -writing session. I didn't really know that at the time, meaning a lyric that has been edited to the point that it's ready to be paired with music, preferably typewritten. But he just found something that was handwritten and he was like, this is good. I can work with this.
Layci (41:17.959)
Yeah.
Layci (41:21.837)
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (41:22.538)
And that became a song that is one of the stronger songs in the show. It's called Live Until You Die. And it's an anthem inspired by the words of Cicely Saunders, the founder of the modern hospice movement. So thematically, it's important.
Layci (41:30.337)
Hmm.
Layci (41:38.703)
Mmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (41:41.854)
as a song for like teaching purposes, definitely in the clinical setting, I'm always talking about that song. And the hospice people are all over that song. Cause like those words can be seen in needle point or poster form on the wall of like every hospice in the world. I mean, and I tweak the words a little so they are mine, but I attribute it to her partially. But it's...
Layci (41:45.965)
Yeah.
Layci (41:57.261)
Yeah.
Layci (42:01.816)
Yeah. Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (42:09.662)
It's a song that celebrates living in the moment and caring for people, even while acknowledging that they are dying. So I will walk with you while you're on your way. I will talk with you so you have your say. Be here by your side till the final day. I'm here with you. Live until you die.
Layci (42:16.098)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Layci (42:26.668)
Hmm.
Layci (42:32.174)
And if you had not have gotten that candid feedback and redirect from your co -collaborator, that song wouldn't have been born, at least not as it is now.
Benjamin Kintisch (42:43.454)
Yeah, and I can tell you with love to every other creator out there, I have seen great songs performed in settings where people share material and I've seen some real clunkers. And God bless you for having the bravery to present a song, good, bad, or otherwise, on a community stage when given the chance, right? Like, I will clap for you and I will not be mean.
Layci (42:56.13)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (43:04.45)
Yes, yes.
Layci (43:08.546)
Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (43:11.422)
I will say on the drive home to my wife, like, wow, that song about driving a car, oof. And sometimes, no, no. And it was so bad, Layci, that we sometimes reference it. It's amazing how train wrecks, so to speak, creatively can sometimes be memorable. People don't really remember middling movies. They remember great ones and terrible ones. Same thing with songs. Outfits, yeah.
Layci (43:16.59)
It's not exactly fast car. Yeah.
Layci (43:31.0)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (43:34.849)
So true.
Benjamin Kintisch (43:40.075)
people who are musical theater dorks, they all have their favorite show that was a commercial flop, but should have been a hit, you know. So my hope is eventually I have a small commercial hit. There's one theater on Broadway, the smallest theater where I saw Kimberly Akimbo. So it's like just 500 seats, but it feels small by New York standards.
Layci (43:45.853)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Layci (43:53.301)
Yes!
Layci (44:03.413)
Ugh.
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (44:08.157)
and it's built for small shows. And it was perfect. And I said to my wife, I was like, this is where Life Review needs to be. And she's like, let's do it, let's get there.
Layci (44:10.476)
Yeah.
Layci (44:17.199)
I love.
So would you say your biggest learning and takeaway from that, or maybe not biggest, but one of from that bringing the lyric that wasn't ready, wasn't valuable, you thought it was great, but being open and hearing, this isn't it, is it, what did you take away from that experience primarily? Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (44:40.284)
the lesson from that moment? To be a creative collaborator, you have to be ready to accept that not all of your ideas are going to be loved by the other people, or even liked.
Layci (44:52.034)
Yes. Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (44:53.078)
But it's a numbers game. Anything you read about creativity, and I've read a lot in this area, because I like to talk about it, and sometimes people say smart things. certainly one thing that Sue Harowitz taught me as a songwriter, and I teach to other would -be songwriters and playwrights, you need to get your pen or pencil moving. And I actually prefer in longhand, literally a pencil or pen in a journal. And you have to...
Layci (45:10.573)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (45:14.21)
Yes.
Layci (45:19.949)
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (45:22.644)
I'll tell you numbers from my friend Joe Buchanan, another obscure musician who deserves more attention. He is a Jewish country slash roots artist. He writes beautiful stuff and he's a beautiful songwriter. Listen to him too. So he told me for his first album, which is, I believe, a small masterpiece.
Layci (45:32.259)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (45:43.975)
Mm.
Benjamin Kintisch (45:44.428)
called Unbroken, he had approximately 100 songs that he wrote in various degrees of finished. Out of 100 songs, he made scratch demos, no, he finished 50. So 100 songs of various degrees of finished, 50 songs were finished, meaning two or three verses, a bridge and a chorus.
Layci (45:49.51)
Mm.
Layci (45:52.728)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (46:10.883)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (46:11.98)
So 50 songs with that much work done. Out of those, he did demos for 25. And a demo again means some kind of recording, probably just guitar and vocal. Out of those 25, he did 10 studio recordings, 10 tracks for his album.
Layci (46:19.466)
Mm -hmm. Yep. Mm -hmm.
Layci (46:28.878)
Wow. So much work to get to the 10. That is incredible, is what I'm hearing. An incredible 10. Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (46:36.106)
an incredible amount of work and highly recommended. He's done, I believe, two more albums since then, and he now makes a living as a full -time touring Jewish artist. I think he's the bee's knees. But that lesson was that as a creator, you're going to have to make...
Layci (46:42.007)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (46:47.331)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (46:54.956)
If you think about it a little bit like a lemonade stand, which may be surprising, creative people don't like to think about lemonade stands because we like to think about the angel investor who loves our one great idea and gives us $10 million. Yes, again, if you're listening, find me on Instagram. I will happily take your $10 million, even if it's Canadian. Like, I'll take that too. I understand they have different value, but I'll take Canadian currency and I'll just change it over.
Layci (46:58.168)
Right.
Layci (47:08.856)
Yeah.
Layci (47:14.178)
Heh. Heh.
Layci (47:23.368)
it'll convert at a decent rate. Yeah, yeah, mm -hmm, yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (47:25.312)
Whatever, it's all good. I love Canada. I just recently came back from Toronto, it was amazing. No, but seriously, what were you talking about? With the sharing, you have to keep, with Lemonade, you have to sell a lot of cups to make business. When you're in the business of sharing ideas, not every idea you have is gonna be a winner.
Layci (47:37.485)
Yeah.
Layci (47:46.328)
Right.
Benjamin Kintisch (47:53.748)
I think when you listen, one of the surprises I always feel when I listen to famous creative people, you know, like the sort of people who write and make movies, they often talk about how many movies that they wish they could make, but they can't find someone to make. And I always find that throwaway comment surprising because it is said by someone who is so spectacularly famous and rich,
Layci (47:54.211)
Right?
Layci (48:15.118)
Mm -hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (48:22.654)
I can't believe that they have projects that can't get done. Have you ever heard that said by famous person?
Layci (48:30.38)
don't know many famous people in that realm. But yes, I've heard about incredible.
Benjamin Kintisch (48:32.01)
No, no, do you know what I mean? no, not, not that I've met, but, like, Steven Spielberg might be the exception to the rule, because he has his own, literally his own studio with his name on the wall.
Layci (48:38.304)
yes, yes, yes. He makes his own, which he probably does cause he wanted people, cause he didn't get enough yeses. So he's like, fine, I'll do it myself. But yeah, yeah, yeah. I have heard of that. And you see it in business too. You see these, no, you see creative entrepreneurs. Like if you study...
Benjamin Kintisch (48:49.194)
Right, but that's the exception, but someone a little smaller, someone like Richard Linklater, he does amazing stuff. But you can't get it all done.
Layci (49:03.63)
looking at how many swings at bat and like terrible products Microsoft has made, like completely could not compete in the market and just got devoured by software that did it better, faster, whatever, had a better user interface. It's a totally different kind of creativity, still creativity, still innovation and still it's any creative process is
Yes, you could have one really big success or two, but it doesn't mean the rest are going to be great. Like we all make stuff that sucks or that just isn't it.
Benjamin Kintisch (49:40.746)
Yes, it isn't it. In the case of that story, there was the piece of having to let go the ego. But I've since learned that there's actually a thing to the craft that you have to put in the studio time. There's a reason why during college I dated an art girl from RISD, right? And she spent a lot of time in the studio. my God. And part of the reason there's that expectation is because they want to build the muscle of work.
Layci (49:48.204)
Yeah.
Layci (49:59.843)
Ha
Yeah.
Layci (50:09.731)
Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (50:10.336)
Because in the real life, whether you've gotten to the point you want or not, the only way you can possibly succeed at creativity is if you are actually creating. In fact, one of the challenges right now, having completed Life Review, is to find time for my next few projects.
give that time and energy even while I'm doing the production stuff related to Life Review. This summer I did well. I'm a music teacher on a 10 month schedule, so two months of summer is wonderful. And I was able to do some business stuff for the show and also start work on the next show by going to the nature place and looking at birds and writing about birds in my songs. And that's been fun.
Layci (50:37.878)
Right. Right.
Layci (50:45.282)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Layci (50:56.557)
Love it.
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (50:59.733)
But the business stuff is not easy and that might be big thing number two. I should say.
From story number one, the collaboration with Jason, maybe I implied it. I should say he's generally a good dude. And because he's worked in the business a long time, he knows how to navigate around artists with fragile egos.
Layci (51:23.422)
one of my very best mentors, the very first time I wrote something for her that was essentially like a white paper sort of thought, thought leadership type thing. She looked at it, looked, looked at it, read it, looked at it. Me, she's from New York. We were on the West coast. She goes, this is shit. Hands it back to me. And it was, it was rough, but
Benjamin Kintisch (51:47.776)
It's not good.
Layci (51:51.672)
I had to choose to either learn from her or get crushed. And I chose it as a learning opportunity and was able to say, tell me more and not just run back to my office and cry. I wanted to. And then she ended up becoming like one of my best mentors in the early parts of my career.
Benjamin Kintisch (52:03.73)
Ooh, good phrase. Save the crying for later. Tears are available all as needed.
Yeah, Miranda Priestly, right?
Layci (52:16.62)
But she also will say, I don't know why they put me in charge of anyone. I'm terrible at people. She really does not. She's right. She's not really good at people, but she's brilliant at her craft. so, yeah. Yep. Yep.
Benjamin Kintisch (52:30.316)
Right, so finding the right people for your team, especially when you're aware. I mean, I'll speak for myself. I'm a sensitive person. I think I'm good with people, but I'm not for everyone. I'm very quirky. I'm a little bit spacey. I probably need an assistant slash proper producer. and as soon as I get money, I'll get one or both. but that said, to my credit, I've managed to steer the ship for 10 years now.
Layci (52:38.368)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (52:42.081)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (52:51.114)
Yeah. Yeah.
Layci (53:00.194)
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (53:00.556)
And if you go to the website, we have a big creative team, two main composers, two additional musicians who did arranging, second playwright. I've worked with, of course, my own family and friend network as producers, but some individuals, more recent partnership with the Hap Foundation of Illinois. So like we're kind of growing our network and our reach.
Layci (53:12.472)
Yeah.
Layci (53:18.883)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Layci (53:28.27)
So I'm hearing like two, several really good take homes for our listener, our listeners. We do have more than one. the, what I, right, right, one a day. I'll take one a day. Yes, but great, great listenership. Wanna let that, what I'm hearing from you in this is that you gotta put in the work and do the time.
Benjamin Kintisch (53:33.076)
Yes, please. I'd love a good take home.
I gotta take home for a day. Bring a strong bag!
Layci (53:57.198)
Creativity requires repetitions, doing the reps, and you're going to have the good, the bad, and the ugly is going to come out of that. Having the, having the chutzpah to be able to put yourself out there and be vulnerable, you have to share it because it's not going to, it can't exist in the closet. It can't exist. You have to, you have to be willing to...
Benjamin Kintisch (54:00.737)
Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (54:10.026)
Yes
Benjamin Kintisch (54:14.912)
Gotta share it. Yep.
Benjamin Kintisch (54:22.248)
It can, but you guarantee the size of the audience when you keep it in the closet and you keep it in the drawer. We all have our private dreams. We all do. But when we have the nerve to take it out of the drawer and share it, give it some sunshine, shine a light on it, it might just, might just grow. Might just take off.
Layci (54:26.408)
Yes, yes, yes.
Layci (54:34.487)
Yes.
Layci (54:39.17)
Yes, you can be extremely self -limiting by refusing to share. And I will say selfish because someone probably needs what you have. So get over yourself and put it out there. Easier said than done. So...
Benjamin Kintisch (54:51.532)
Yeah, I love that. Well, you know, my day job, Layci, I'm an elementary school music teacher. So I have approximately 150 kids spread across eight small private school classes. There's a lot of reassuring when you're the music teacher. It's like, you can sing, you can dance, you can play a xylophone, just try, right? Because, like the whole curriculum is built on exploration and experimentation.
Layci (54:59.648)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Layci (55:07.616)
Yes. Yes.
Layci (55:20.887)
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (55:21.452)
I've noticed that a lot of adults are far less open to that. And to me, it's been maybe the biggest challenge for me personally in terms of leadership. One of the reasons I was drawn to your hook, or the name of your podcast, I feel depending on the day, sometimes like I'm a rather successful creative leader because look,
Layci (55:25.912)
Yes.
Layci (55:40.608)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (55:49.174)
Yep. Yep.
Benjamin Kintisch (55:50.252)
I've made it 10 years and I'm still going. On the other hand, I've had some real setbacks. There was an attempt to stage an outdoor show, let's say late in COVID, when the world was just starting to do things like outdoor shows, the wheels came off in a pretty dramatic way that broke my heart and the show never happened. Looking back on it, it's probably just as well. But I learned in that moment, like,
Layci (55:52.536)
Yeah.
Layci (56:05.344)
Yes, yes.
yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (56:19.808)
Being lead producer is probably not for me. I need at least a small team, especially if I'm gonna be on stage.
Layci (56:23.119)
Mmm. Yep, you got it. Yes.
Yeah, building the team. That's the other, the other thing that I heard is like, you've got to, you put it out there, you take it out of the drawer, you show people, and then you start saying, please come, will you come help me? You ask, will you come be part of this, the invitation? And then you start building out that team. And that also requires, as you shared, a high level of chutzpah and vulnerability to really be willing to, to
Benjamin Kintisch (56:37.441)
Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (56:42.432)
Yeah, yeah, who can help? Yeah, partnership.
Benjamin Kintisch (56:57.27)
Yeah.
Layci (56:58.764)
get rejected and you will get some no's. You will have some collaborative crushes say, thank you or not right now. And being willing to, you have to say, I'm gonna put my ego down enough to be able to do this knowing I might get a little bruised and it's still gonna be worth it because the ultimate outcome is more, there's more value in that.
Benjamin Kintisch (56:59.958)
That's right. Yeah.
Layci (57:28.344)
There's so much there that I can't not try. Because if I don't try, I'm not gonna be okay with it. That's how I always know if it's a good idea for me to go forward or not with an idea is, am I going to be able to be okay if I see someone else out there do it first or instead of me? And am I ever, am I gonna be okay and able to look back and say, I'm okay that I didn't try to do this? And if I can't honestly answer, you know, those questions,
in a way that allows me to release it, I know that it's not an idea I can let go of yet. Or at all. Yeah.
Benjamin Kintisch (58:03.526)
Thanks. I hear all that, Layci. Well said, for sure. You know, it's a big piece of being a creative person. It's a vulnerability. And part of what you're being vulnerable to is this thing called rejection, which happens a lot in the world of performance. A lot of times you're sharing about your event or your appearance and you...
Layci (58:08.583)
Ugh.
Layci (58:22.893)
Yep.
Benjamin Kintisch (58:29.864)
and you're doing this kind of mental calculus about how many people can you reach out to and convinced to come. And some people are going to be excited and a lot of people are going to ignore you. And it's not personal. It's kind of a numbers game. So that becomes a different sort of skill set doing the promotions, the social media, the appearances. I'll tell you that it is
Layci (58:39.81)
Yeah? Right, right. Yep.
Layci (58:50.253)
Yep.
Benjamin Kintisch (58:59.05)
difficult for me to stay on top of all manner of professional things, especially with, let's call it like complex project management is not my number one skill. But this is exactly right. Well, this is exactly what a musical is, though, if you think about it, I've described working with five or six creatives.
Layci (59:12.654)
Mine either, I have a team. Yes. Yes. yes. So many moving pieces. Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (59:23.848)
So right now, just to give like a very specific glimpse, right now I'm getting ready for five appearances, one of which is a one night only and the other four are part of a festival, but it's essentially five shows. Luckily, one pianist has been hired for all five, so that's simplified. The show provides sound, but not a tech at the festival. We have sound gear in -house for the one night only, but not a tech. It's like...
Layci (59:36.363)
Yes, yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (59:52.308)
like, so wait, where do I need to hide? You know, like, so clearly I need to sit down with a pad when I'm not on camera and figure out what needs to be done. And while my wife does not want to be an assistant or an associate producer, she can be helpful as a sounding board. I may attempt again to get someone like a local college get a theater major to be like a social media assistant or something and I bet you they would do awesome. But
Layci (59:53.26)
Yes, yes.
Layci (59:59.787)
Yes.
Layci (01:00:10.068)
Yes. Yes.
Layci (01:00:18.71)
Right. Right.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:00:22.442)
The challenge...
something I was joking about with your producer before we got going. The thing that I do the best is the thing that's actually the hardest to do, which is write a musical that entertains and moves people. I did that. I can make people cry with the power of my words. So that's that's a superpower. And I can sing it at a professional level, which is also no small potatoes. Maybe superpower, maybe a superpower adjacent, but it's it's something.
Layci (01:00:36.565)
Mmm.
Layci (01:00:41.195)
Yeah.
Yes. Yes.
Also super power, yes.
Layci (01:00:54.83)
It's a skill. It is a high level skill. Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:00:55.658)
I'm always worried that they're gonna try to replace me. It's a high level skill to be fair, I am conservatory level singer. That said though, this thing of like producing project management, it is actually something that others do far better than me. So I look forward to the day when I can bring on some people to help me because whether for this example of the
Layci (01:01:08.792)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (01:01:15.437)
Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:01:25.164)
Fringe Festival, it's only a 30 seat room. So selling out is not impossible, but I also don't expect to get more than two to four people from my network for any given night in Baltimore city. Like my people don't live in the city. They live in the Burbs or DC area. So it's like a schlep. Maybe they'll come, but like, I can't count on it. how -
Layci (01:01:32.462)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (01:01:38.582)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Right.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:01:52.562)
So, so how am going to do it? Now I have had success, previous appearances with my own hustle and social media and then boosting a little bit, but I still feel very novice. I'm making a face if you're just listening. But like, it's also, I believe part of the leadership journey is, and I've been assisted by a couple of good coaches. Shout out to Alex Paulting.
formerly of the Hustling Creative, shout out to Emily Renda of Astor Growth LLC. Emily Renda specializes in executive function related work. So a lot of creative people like us, woo! I keep her busy.
Layci (01:02:25.784)
Very cool.
Layci (01:02:31.77)
Nice, nice.
Yeah, you probably keep her busy. Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:02:40.296)
And she's been very generous to my project donating a lot of services. And I've recently started donating voice lessons and exchange. So we've enjoyed that swap. But Emily and I have spoken about how there are some things that I just cannot farm out. But there are other things that with a little bit of work, I could maybe get some money. And then with money, I could get a paid assistant.
Layci (01:02:48.141)
nice.
Layci (01:02:55.906)
Right.
Layci (01:03:04.438)
Mm -hmm.
Right, right. It's the chicken and the egg, right? When you need, yes, what's just gonna come?
Benjamin Kintisch (01:03:11.547)
Yes, what do you get first? By the way, I want to say parenthetically regarding money, it is true that if you have a boatload of money, you can pour gasoline on the small fire that is your project and make it take off artificially. I have an anecdotal evidence for that. My friend, Jason, who works in the business represented a client who has been on Broadway and he got to workshop a show that they privately thought was was not very good.
Layci (01:03:27.491)
Right.
Layci (01:03:41.185)
huh. Mm hmm.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:03:41.322)
He used even more colorful language, but there was stupid money behind the project and then a workshop was staged. And he said, Ben, I believe your project is a lot better. Unfortunately, you don't have any stupid money. So we're not workshopping it yet in New York City. But what we were talking about is essentially I'm in this slow workshop process of presenting it in the one -man version in the...
Layci (01:03:46.57)
Mm hmm. Yep.
Layci (01:03:57.852)
Yeah
Layci (01:04:03.832)
Right.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:04:08.576)
you know, concert version at a synagogue if I can do that again and then see what does it sound like, see what does it feel like. But with the hope that I can get that eventual theater partner to stand it up properly. So there you go.
Layci (01:04:08.696)
Yeah.
Layci (01:04:24.792)
then I think we could talk all day about life and theater and music. However, I want to bring it home for our listeners.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:04:33.864)
Yes, because they have things to do. They've already finished walking the dog and they did the dishes. They've no more chores. And their husband or wife is saying, honey, we have long order on DVR. Do people still DVR? Some people do. Older people do. Because it replaced VCR. They're like, I'm not streaming. I just learned DVR.
Layci (01:04:36.13)
They do!
Layci (01:04:39.788)
I know, I know.
Layci (01:04:45.88)
That's right. I don't know. I don't think they do. Maybe? I don't know. So.
Layci (01:04:56.686)
Yeah, that's actually probably very valid. Yes. So all this to take it home, if you're say listeners that are creatives, whether they're creative in the same way you are, or they're creative in their entrepreneurially creative, anyone who is, has that creative bent, if you could say, just take this one gem with you, what would it be?
Benjamin Kintisch (01:04:59.36)
haha
Benjamin Kintisch (01:05:05.771)
Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:05:12.842)
Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:05:24.502)
say, get yourself an appealing journal book with lines and a pen or pencil that that goes with it and make sure it's with you all the time. When you have good ideas, get in the habit of writing them down. Write down your your silly little joke, write down your slogan, your
Layci (01:05:38.21)
Mmm.
Yes. Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:05:48.608)
that your song lyric, your song title, if you're a songwriter, I always write song titles into my phone. Like, yes, there's the tech version, you can also do a tech analog with your voice memo. But I personally think that a journal book is a better place as a compendium for ideas. It's inviting, and you can find your things and scribble further, doodle further.
Layci (01:06:14.166)
Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:06:17.14)
And the other thing I mean related to that is let the pen and or pencil move across this the the page at speed try to to to take that pre editing voice and tell to shut up and Just go stream of consciousness style and you I promise you you can edit later This goes for lyricists or playwrights story writers and it also goes for people who writing a business plan or grant proposal
Layci (01:06:25.992)
Mmm. Mm -hmm.
Layci (01:06:30.444)
Yeah. Yep.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, you cannot edit a blank page. Yes. Yes.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:06:47.176)
Exactly. So fill that page. I tell my songwriting students write until your hand hurts. And then if your hand hurts, take your pen, shake it, shake it, shake it, and then write some more. So you can apply that to whatever you're doing. Because then at a certain point, the ideas are just going to come later on when you catch your breath and you're nursing your sore hand, then you can talk about editing. I generally recommend though giving it a day or two.
Layci (01:07:00.906)
Yes!
Layci (01:07:10.701)
Mm -hmm.
Layci (01:07:16.664)
I love it. Yeah. Let it sit. Yep. I love it.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:07:17.509)
at least a meal before you try to edit and then come back. That's going to help you get your ideas out on the page.
Layci (01:07:24.696)
Ben, thank you so much. This has been a fun conversation. First playwright we've interviewed, so that's exciting. And I really enjoy the creativity just bubbles out of you and the passion for your work and your project. I'm amped, I'm ready. I'm ready to go pitch it to our local theater. And Washington State, so we are all the way across the country.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:07:28.932)
I've enjoyed it too much, Layci.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:07:33.621)
Fantastic.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:07:39.657)
Thank you.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:07:47.082)
Fantastic. What part of the country are you, Layci?
Benjamin Kintisch (01:07:52.64)
So I've never been to Washington State, but fun fact, the first ever live performance of Life Review was on the stage of Reed College in nearby Portland, Oregon. You may be aware that Oregon is a suburb of Washington State, so.
Layci (01:08:01.003)
okay.
I've heard, I've heard. Excellent,
Benjamin Kintisch (01:08:09.452)
Yeah, so that was our first ever live performance. That was a Jewish education conference at Reed College. And we performed in their beautiful concert hall, about 100 attendees in there. Nice room.
Layci (01:08:14.476)
Very cool, very cool.
Okay. Well, my husband's childhood friend is very actively involved with the Seattle chapter of what it still very dear friends of ours with JSS up in Seattle. J Jewish that society, what it's the, he joined it through college. I'm clearly not someone who is Jewish, but it is a very active chapter in Seattle and they're
Benjamin Kintisch (01:08:30.87)
JSS.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:08:42.688)
It's okay.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:08:46.582)
So someone's involved with a Jewish something in Seattle. Awesome. Sounds terrific. Well, you can tell him you met a guy. Maybe we know each other.
Layci (01:08:49.363)
Yes, very, very connected. But
Layci (01:08:59.21)
Maybe you know, no, you don't, but his wife's family's from New York. So maybe you'd yeah. I was getting there. So yeah. So there I was making my way over.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:09:03.532)
well I might know them. Out of about five or six million Jews in America, only about two million are in the New York City metro area, never know.
Layci (01:09:12.566)
You very well. You're probably best friends. You're probably neighbors. You never know. But thank you. Where can people find you?
Benjamin Kintisch (01:09:21.012)
All right, so there's a great website, lifereviewmusical .com. That's where you can learn all about the project. There's a form to get in touch and the great trailer video where you can see live footage from the show that occurred right before COVID. I'm active on Instagram, at Life Review Musical, where I post regularly and you can DM me there. So those are two good ways to be in touch.
Layci (01:09:36.204)
Okay.
Layci (01:09:45.836)
and we will drop all of your links in our show notes. And I'm ready to get this musical over here on the West Coast somewhere again. So.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:09:55.734)
Fantastic. By the way, I know we're already way over time, but I always offer to sing a song, so I don't want to forget that.
Layci (01:10:02.158)
Yes, please. We will make time for that. before, let me say, listener, I'll do the close and then Mary and Leif can edit and maybe we'll drop your song in the middle. I don't know where they're gonna wanna put it. So, yes, I will close this out saying, listeners, until next time, go manage like a leader. And Ben, let us exit.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:10:04.083)
Okay.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:10:16.704)
Whatevs. I'm game.
Layci (01:10:31.266)
with one of your songs. I am so happy that you are putting yourself out there to play for us. So please do.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:10:38.272)
Fantastic. So because this is on the fly, we're gonna rock it acapella style. This is the title track of the show, Life Review, the Hospice musical. As you listen, I encourage you to imagine yourself as a patient encountering a chaplain. How would you answer these questions? Who are?
Layci (01:10:45.228)
Yes!
Layci (01:10:59.982)
Okay.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:11:06.998)
Did you too?
Benjamin Kintisch (01:11:11.552)
Where did you go?
Benjamin Kintisch (01:11:16.556)
Did you know?
Benjamin Kintisch (01:11:21.377)
You
Benjamin Kintisch (01:11:25.836)
What did you lose?
Benjamin Kintisch (01:11:30.006)
When you had a choice
How did you choose?
Benjamin Kintisch (01:11:40.096)
Tell me your story. Give a glimmer of your glory. How you got to here and now. I am here to hear you now. We are here to hear you now.
Life review, sing of joys and heartbreaks. We can hear your voice even as it fades. Life review, through the triumphs and the sorrows with more yesterdays than tomorrow.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:12:32.586)
Time to do a little life review.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:12:40.79)
Tell me about your mom and dad. What was the best job you had? How about when your health got bad? When did you feel fine? Where did you live? Where did you move to? What were the records you used to groove to? Is there time enough to ask all that I'm
You can tell me your secrets if I earn your trust.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:13:20.426)
What are you proud of? Are you carrying shame? Did you ever get married? What was their name? Too soon I have to go. Too soon you have to go. But now life review. Sing of joys and heartbreaks.
We can hear your voice even as it fades. Life review through the triumphs and the sorrows with more yesterdays than tomorrows. Time to do a little life review.
Layci (01:14:17.851)
Thank you. Thank you so much. That was beautiful.
Benjamin Kintisch (01:14:22.624)
Thanks, Layci. Thanks, listeners.
Layci (01:14:23.96)
Thank you. Thank you.