S2, Ep. 23: Q&A- What Does It Mean To Be A Well-Differentiated Leader?

Layci (00:01.492)
Hello listeners and welcome back to Confessions of a Terrible Leader. I'm your host and former terrible leader, Lacey Nelson. Today it is again my turn to sit in the hot seat, answer the questions. Mary is on with us today, the amazing Mary, podcast producer extraordinaire. And Mary, I'm gonna hand it over to you, cause I'm not driving today. So you're driving, here I am.

Mary Skop (00:25.55)
That's true. Awesome. Well, thank you again, Lacey, for willing to being willing to be in the hot seat yet again today. Really appreciate that. So today we are going to do something a little bit different. I'm going to talk briefly about a book I have been reading that I have delightfully discovered, kind of accidentally discovered that this started off as a book about how to make

good decision. And this book is called How to Walk into a Room by Emily P. Freeman. And the subtitle is fantastic. It's the art of knowing when to stay and when to walk away. And I just want to make sure I say we are in no way affiliated with Emily P. Freeman. She is incredible and she has a fantastic podcast called The Next Right Thing, which is all about making your next right decision. I think it's pretty safe to say.

Layci (00:56.294)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (01:23.182)
that making decisions can be a really hard thing for many of us. And we can experience a lot of paralysis and get in our own way. Emily's work is all about helping you through that. So this, Emily has no idea who I am or trance and leadership. So this is not a sponsored in any way, shape or form by Emily, but Emily, if you want to be on the podcast, just send me, hit us up. Let me know. We'd love to. We do. So.

Layci (01:31.86)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (01:48.244)
Emily, we want to know you!

Mary Skop (01:52.302)
Yes. So a little bit of fangirling, but anyway, let's get to it. So as I was reading the book with the intent of learning about how to stay and how to walk away and how to know if it's the right thing, as I got to the end of the book, I realized this is really a book about leadership, about leading yourself well. And I would encourage anyone who has to make some really tough decisions about how to stay, how to walk away. I would encourage you to.

take a look and read how to walk into a room. But Lacey, I'm going to start by reading a small portion, just a small, well, kind of a robust paragraph from the chapter, Walk In as a Leader, and then we can discuss from there. Okay. In his book, A Failure of Nerve, Edwin Friedman writes about leadership in the age of the quick fix. He writes about the systems of families and institutions and calls out the peacemongers.

Layci (02:37.204)
All right.

Mary Skop (02:50.478)
those who are highly anxious risk avoiders. He describes this kind of leader as one who is more concerned with good feelings than with progress. Someone whose life revolves around the axis of consensus, a middler, someone who is incapable of taking well -defined stands. He submits that while these types of leaders are often nice, if not charming, they lack the ability or rather the willingness to coexist with conflict or the anxiety of others.

The antidote to the peacemonger is what Friedman calls a well differentiated leader, which is someone who knows how to lead herself. A well differentiated leader has clarity about their own personal core values. They can be separate from others while remaining connected with others. They can manage their own emotional reactions and therefore are able to take stands to speak up and to risk displeasing. It isn't particular skills or techniques of leadership that count the most.

but a leader's ability to be present and engaged even when the system or the group is displeased. There's a lot there, Lacy.

Layci (03:53.108)
That's like a whole book in like a paragraph.

Mary Skop (03:55.598)
Right. Yeah. That's it's really, it's heavy. And, and as a leader. So my question is this, and it might be a bit of a roundabout way of going about it, but so I think it's pretty safe to say that we live in an age where being a leader is probably more challenging than it ever has been. Despite abundant resources for so many different things available to you. Where is the line as far as.

Layci (04:15.38)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (04:20.148)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (04:25.23)
We have a desire to create an inclusive workplace. One of our core values at Transcend Leadership Collective is people deserve to show up to work feeling safe, that their contribution matters, feeling valued. Lacey, is there anything else you want to add to that? Motivated.

Layci (04:41.844)
Motivated, engaged, and inspired, right? Everyone deserves that opportunity to feel motivated, engaged, and inspired.

Mary Skop (04:49.038)
Yes, absolutely.

Layci (04:50.677)
And every boss deserves to know how to actually make that happen. Yep.

Mary Skop (04:53.614)
Yes, definitely. So as a leader, as a boss, a founder, manager of your own company, where is like, this is a tough thing, where's that line between creating that safe space and being and then allowing it or allowing it to spiral into, I become a peacemonger.

Layci (05:16.852)
Right. I love this question and it is extremely nuanced, right? Like this is the nitty -gritty, like the mad, there's no magic, but if there was, this would be like part of the magic of leadership. It's getting into this level of understanding that you can go in with the best of intentions and this is a place where it often falls apart, especially for people that are conflict -avoidant. And,

Mary Skop (05:43.214)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (05:46.452)
And for people that go in with these beautiful visions and want the best, right? The best of intentions, but then they end up feeling resentful, like, my gosh, my team is walking all over me. Why do I, why am I so taken for granted? Those are some flags that this might be happening for you that you've stepped into that territory of being a peacemonger because I will like, like first, if we're going to break it down first, let's do the diagnostic. Like, how do you know you you're there? How do you know you cross that line? And.

Mary Skop (05:56.91)
Hmm.

Mary Skop (06:13.774)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (06:17.108)
other than chaos, right? Can we catch it before chaos ensues? Chaos is, I think, one of the later things that's harder to miss when it just feels like, are we even reading from the same playbook? Why do some people have different rules than other people? Why does nobody really know what's going on? Why, you know, it feels very chaotic when you have someone in a seat that can't toe that line.

Mary Skop (06:18.898)
I'm sorry.

Layci (06:42.004)
But how do you, if you are the person, how can you check yourself before you're dealing with this spiraling? And so one of the things that I always, always encourage every leader is pay attention to feelings of resentment. So when you are starting to feel resentful towards your people, and even that little where you're like, no, I'm just gonna brush it off, it's me.

Mary Skop (07:10.51)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (07:11.444)
If you're doing that repeatedly listen to it listen to it and figure out where that's happening and Pinpoint why what is it if you're feeling taken for granted if you're feeling? Like people are not respecting you or that they're just not doing their job quote -unquote. They're just not doing their job That is where you need to listen to that

and go, okay, I have lacked clarity somewhere. And I think what happens with peace people that fall into the peacemonger camp, we like peace. We want to be peacemakers. Peacemakers can't run away from conflict. Peacemakers dive into it, but they maintain connection during maybe not the entire process, but they're connected at the end.

Mary Skop (07:54.67)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (08:05.166)
Mmm.

Mary Skop (08:09.326)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (08:09.556)
And so the conflict avoidance is where we get in a lot of trouble. And that can look like trying to be palatable for people. Or you just do what you need to do, or giving a half answer or an indirect answer because you don't want to rock the boat.

Mary Skop (08:37.262)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (08:38.036)
actually in the moment might feel better for you, but is creating an environment that is going to definitely lead to that confusion and later resentment on your part because you know what you meant in your head, but they don't. So.

Mary Skop (08:53.982)
Yeah. Yeah. That's, wow. Thank you for that. That is a lot, certainly a lot to unpack. And I know that there was a recent post from Transcend about you are not as clear as you think you are. And I think that that's something that could be so incredibly easy to fall into, especially like if you're going through a busy season at work, which we certainly have been.

Layci (09:11.892)
Right.

Layci (09:22.644)
Yes, we have.

Mary Skop (09:23.502)
It's been wild. If you, if you go back a couple episodes, you can hear Lacey talk all about our wonderful new partnership with the John Reeves Agribusiness Leadership Institute. So you can hear Lacey unpack that. So yes, so we've certainly been in a huge season of busyness at Transcend Leadership Collective, where it would be so easy to fall into that. I'm so busy. Let's just put a bandaid on this.

Layci (09:32.116)
Okay.

Layci (09:36.564)
Yes.

Layci (09:53.972)
Right, right, absolutely. And that the faster we're moving, the more we're gonna lean into our bad habits as well. So if you know you're someone, you're like, I think she's talking about me this episode. Know that when you're, when you are under stress, it's going to be the, it's gonna do the most harm to fall back into that. And it's also unfortunately going to be the most,

a comfortable familiar pattern for you. So you're going to just likely without a lot of work fall right back into it. And so really like the first step is know yourself, understand when you're feeling resentment, figure out where it's coming from and then get explicitly clear. Like to the point that you kind of feel like I don't want them to think that I'm patronizing them.

Mary Skop (10:49.198)
Mmm.

Layci (10:50.42)
It really does need to get broken down with that level of clarity. So, for example, if you have a person that's working with you and you've given them a deadline, okay, like, hey, I need this to be done at this date, but you've given them even the date, but you haven't said, and this is what it's going to look like to be a successful product.

Mary Skop (11:14.542)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (11:19.444)
or to be successfully meet the deadline. Or I need version one versus I need it public facing quality. Right? So really taking that, which is hard to do when we're busy, but taking that extra time to slow down enough to think it through. And I'm a verbal processor, so I have to be exceptionally careful to have worked through the thinking out loud phase before I give a directive.

Mary Skop (11:19.694)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (11:28.078)
Yeah, right.

Layci (11:48.5)
Cause if I'm giving a directive while I'm thinking out loud, it doesn't sound like a directive. It just sounds like confusion. Mary, you're so bad.

Mary Skop (11:55.726)
That is true. It's like, wait, is this a new idea? I better start writing things down. But, but then the clarity comes, but, but I, and that's something I appreciate so much is when there's a level of clarity that is, it's, it's just incredibly high level of clarity. And it doesn't feel like, I think if it's done right, it absolutely doesn't feel patronizing. It's like, thank goodness.

I know exactly what I need to do. And that is fantastic. Cause then I know how much time I need to allot for that. And like the level of attention and urgency, then all of those expectations fall into place. Cause I know exactly what I need to do. Exactly.

Layci (12:28.18)
Yes, yes.

Layci (12:43.476)
You know how to win. You're not just like trying to find the light switch in a dark room that you've never been in before.

Mary Skop (12:50.446)
That's so true. Yes. No, then it's like, I've got a map. I have a roadmap and I know, I know where to go. I know what to do. And that feels great. Having that level of clarity. Yeah.

Layci (12:55.38)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (12:59.444)
Yes. Yes. And that's part of it. I mean, the whole that that paragraph was like packed that you shared. There's so much in there. There's also so get clear, right? That's part of it. Check and always assume you're less clear than you think you were. Always ask what other you know, what other questions do you have? Let me know when you get stuck and I will help you get unstuck. I also will encourage people to say don't let me be the bottleneck. If I am.

Mary Skop (13:06.702)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (13:15.79)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (13:28.014)
Hmm.

Layci (13:28.916)
Or if I am if I am bottlenecking this like say hey, we are stuck waiting for you on this like very pointedly So it's that joint it's that two -way street of permission as well Like I mean I give especially myself being an exceptionally direct communicator I need you to tell me extremely directly so understanding your own style is in what you respond to and then telling it's basically giving

Mary Skop (13:40.43)
Yes.

Layci (13:56.852)
your team members, your operating manual, right? Like you're telling them, this is what I need from you to get the most out of me and to get what you need from me. And that can really help just clear up the things that lead to it. Now there are times though, there are times where you can be doing all of this and you still are going to hit bumps where you have someone who does not like a decision you made.

Mary Skop (13:59.502)
and then.

Mary Skop (14:15.15)
yeah.

Mary Skop (14:24.046)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (14:25.268)
and they don't like the direction things are going. And this is where it can be tempting to be wishy -washy or to feel like you need to prioritize taking care of that person's response to your decision, emotional response to your decision. And that is also where we can start to have things fall apart and go into that peace monger.

Mary Skop (14:28.302)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (14:33.326)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (14:45.55)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (14:55.668)
at the expense of everybody else or at the expense of the mission even, or expense of the work, expense of the client. And that can look like, say that you have a situation where you've got a client that wants something and is unhappy with the way it's being delivered and you're dealing with the person doing the delivery of that service.

Mary Skop (14:55.758)
Yeah.

Mary Skop (15:02.446)
Right.

Layci (15:23.476)
and you need to tell that person, we need to change this up for the client. And that person doing the service delivery is like, no, we don't. This is absolutely not this and this and this, and I need it this way. I want it to happen this way. This, you know, they agreed to this originally. Now,

Again, everything's nuanced, right? Would we really be in this line of work if we didn't say, well, it depends several times. But it's, you, there, there comes a point where when you are making a hard decision, even if you're not behind, even if behind closed doors and like to your partner, you're like, I don't know about this one. In the moment with your team, you have,

Mary Skop (15:53.058)
Yeah.

Mary Skop (16:16.142)
Yeah.

Layci (16:16.724)
to stand firm on it. You have to stand firm on it. Now don't be an idiot. If you have a pattern of standing firm in a way that is like really causing a lot of people angst, look at the way you're doing that or you know making decision after decision that falls apart. You're the common denominator. So all of this I said, it depends. But

If there is a decision that needs to be made and you know it's not going to be popular, but you're a hundred percent confident and it's what needs to be done and you're standing on your core values and you're standing on what your mission, why you're doing what you're doing. And it is founded in those things and you've communicated clearly then.

That is where you have to be part of leader. The cost of leadership is the willingness to take the heat and to not feel like it's my responsibility to make you feel okay, like emotionally okay with my decision that I just made. I, in fact, I have historically told people you can be upset with this. You can be mad about this decision.

Mary Skop (17:10.222)
Hmm.

Layci (17:33.94)
And you're you need to process that and be salty a while about the way this went. Go right. Go ahead. Like you can be. I'm not going. It's OK to be angry about it. It's OK to not like it. And just me stating that hat does a tremendous amount of walking that line of like I'm not.

Mary Skop (17:42.286)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (17:51.694)
Yeah.

Mary Skop (18:02.254)
Mm -hmm.

Layci (18:03.316)
going to sacrifice what we're after here as a collective whole because you don't like this decision. I'm not going to turn myself inside out to make you okay with it. I'm going to respect you. I'm going to listen to what you have to say. And I'm going to be able to say this is why this decision was made. This is the direction that we're going. And be willing to sit with the

Mary Skop (18:10.67)
Right.

Layci (18:31.892)
emotional weight of someone else that's not on board with it, that's on my team. And not feel like I have to fix it.

Mary Skop (18:36.462)
Yeah.

Right. Right. I think that, well, first of all, that is a good word. Thank you. And what a difference between managing a person's reaction like that versus saying, you know, I don't really care what you think. I'm the boss. I don't care how you feel about this. I don't care what you think. What a huge difference that would make. Yeah.

Layci (19:04.06)
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. So it's, I didn't even think about that angle. That's why we make a good team. Yeah. So it is, it is, it's creating that environment, right? Where it's still like, you can bring your full feelings to the table. You don't have to, you don't have to pretend that you love everything that I do or every decision that I make. And it doesn't mean that because you disagree with the choice I made that you're now off.

Mary Skop (19:11.182)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (19:21.198)
Yeah, absolutely.

Mary Skop (19:26.03)
Right.

Layci (19:32.244)
team, so to speak, even just in my mind, right? So I have to be at the, the leader has to be at the emotional maturity phase state done the work to be able to hold the, that, you know, I know you're not going to like this and I'm truly okay with it. And I'm okay with you having your emotions about it. I wouldn't start with, I know you're not going to like this by the way, but if you get that response, the,

Mary Skop (19:33.518)
Right.

Mary Skop (19:41.966)
Yes.

Layci (20:01.94)
but being firm and saying, and this is what we're gonna do anyway. And I understand, I am okay with, I don't love that you're not.

Feeling great about it, but it is going to go this way and you can be angry about it for a while if you need to be angry about it for a while and then moving forward, right? This also comes to where You're gonna be there. I'm sure there's people are big. I don't have employees that can do that That can handle that level of conversation, right? they just don't have that emotional maturity They very well might not but that is where

Mary Skop (20:19.822)
Yeah. Sure.

Mary Skop (20:30.766)
Mm -hmm.

Sure.

Mary Skop (20:37.998)
Yeah.

Layci (20:42.516)
you can start, it could be a some good, you know, ideas for maybe some trainings for how do we do conflict? What is healthy conflict? We happen to train on that. But yeah, understanding even just that we we actually want healthy conflict. And that doesn't mean false peace, right? So false peace is an illusion. It's that that's what would not be peace is like,

Mary Skop (20:50.382)
Right. Right.

Yes.

Mary Skop (21:05.358)
Great. Yep.

Layci (21:12.308)
me just going along or them just going along. It might feel good for me, but they're not actually gonna be bought in any more than if they would have directly said, I don't like this.

Mary Skop (21:16.046)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (21:23.822)
Right, yep.

Mary Skop (21:30.766)
Yeah, and you're really just putting off the inevitable. And it will be so much worse when it actually does come to a head versus if it had been dealt with at the right time in the right manner, it would just, it's just going to be so much worse.

Layci (21:35.636)
Yes. Yes.

Layci (21:43.86)
Mm -hmm.

Those are often the beginning of the seeds of dissension where you have like the meeting after the meeting, where there's the little groups talking about things all over the place. And instead of feeling like they can honestly just say in that session, or maybe they need to come to you after, but the point being they couldn't feel like they could tell you. And so they're telling everybody else and it's gonna get to you, but in that...

Mary Skop (21:51.854)
yeah, ooh. Yes. Yes.

Mary Skop (22:06.414)
right.

Great.

Layci (22:11.796)
In that process, a whole lot of emotional energy is wasted, drama's happening, there's seeds of dissension. We all have been, I unfortunately think we've all been in work settings where there's been a good 40 minutes utilized for just polarized venting, but there's no reconnection or reconciliation. It doesn't do anything.

Mary Skop (22:31.534)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (22:39.47)
Right. Right.

Layci (22:40.564)
to actually venting is okay if it's done in a container that moves things to a place of redemption, that's the word, if it's moving towards that, right? But oftentimes it's just this polarized and everyone walks away even more dysregulated than they were originally, so.

Mary Skop (22:49.998)
But then.

Mary Skop (23:00.974)
Right. Just as, as my parents would say, don't stir the pot.

Layci (23:08.308)
Right, right, right. And so when we're not willing to deal with, when we're not willing to be truly peacemakers, you know, digging in and going, all right, I see you're not down with this, tell me more about it. You know, when we're not willing to sit in that discomfort, it is only a matter of time until we're dealing with the volcanic explosion of disease.

Mary Skop (23:19.37)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (23:30.414)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (23:37.238)
yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's so, so true. And, certainly can be applied on business levels and personal life levels. We see it's all about the communication and we see this type of thing unfolding all the time. I want to thank you, Lacey, for once again, being willing to be in the hot seat. Really appreciate the conversation. I think this is a really hard topic and something that can be so uncomfortable to dig into.

Layci (23:37.62)
for it later.

Layci (24:07.028)
Mm -hmm.

Mary Skop (24:07.086)
so I am going to link to the book in the show notes, to Emily P. Freeman's podcast and website. she has a lot of, wonderful things of, you know, resources of great value. if you are certainly, I mean, certainly for ind, you know, just us as humans, as individuals, but from a leadership standpoint, really helpful tools, that kind of fall off the beaten path. So, that's something.

Layci (24:36.052)
Yes.

Mary Skop (24:36.942)
that we can appreciate. Yes, absolutely.

Layci (24:38.708)
That's what we're all about here. The unconventional look that changes the little thing as Coddely says, the little thing that changes everything, right? The difference that makes the difference.

Mary Skop (24:45.87)
That's right. The difference that makes the difference for sure. So Lacey, I'm going to hand it off to you to see us out and thanks again for your time.

Layci (24:56.596)
fantastic. Thank you. Well, listeners, we hope you got some great nuggets. Follow those links. And until next time, go manage like a leader.